Bouncing along Upper Sycamore, and THEN... we found the perfect rock for poser Pics 
first there were two, and then three....
first there were two, and then three....
Holidays Wheelin? (1 Viewer)
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...and pretty soon there were four Cruisers on that rock
looked like the perfect service bay, and the Taco wasn't that far behind. If you wanted to see the K5, well, that's on another forum... ;p
And note, in contrast to a recently posted poser pic of a certain black LX, there were NO stacker rocks in order to git up on that thang...;p
looked like the perfect service bay, and the Taco wasn't that far behind. If you wanted to see the K5, well, that's on another forum...
;p And note, in contrast to a recently posted poser pic of a certain black LX, there were NO stacker rocks in order to git up on that thang...;p
Again, thanks to everyone for another great day out on the desert trails, in great company 
! And another Forest Service Road in the inventory. Looks like we need to go after 1060 the next rime around... now it's time for 
! And another Forest Service Road in the inventory. Looks like we need to go after 1060 the next rime around... now it's time for 
Looks like a great time - the only thing missing is a Yellow FJC
!
Needless to say the frickin' painter/stucco folks failed to show up , they did, however, call me at about 11:30 to let me know they were not here
Carl
!Needless to say the frickin' painter/stucco folks failed to show up
, they did, however, call me at about 11:30 to let me know they were not here Carl
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The next you know it's a full blown poser orgy!
A few more...
Some nice poser shotts guys
Well, to complete the Holiday Wheeling Season, Karen and I are going to do a New Year's Day jaunt north of town. We plan to run Table Mesa Road from I-17 (exit 236) into Camp Creek Road which spits you out just north of Cave Creek and Bartlett Lake. This is not a difficult run (I ran it my stock Avalanche 4x4), but is fun, scenic, and offers some side trails as well. Anyone intersted, post up and well figure out a meeting place - no gas at Exit 236, as I remember.
This is a trip report I posted elsewhere of yesterday's trip out in FJ. Some of it may not make as much sense since some of it is in response to questions about my tires, etc. from another forum. I'm lazy though so I'm just gonna copy/paste.
I will try and get pics up soon....no guarantees though. I still haven't gotten my wife to upload the pics of the rest of the vehicles on the 12/16 run we did out to Willow Springs.
Here's the pasted trip report:
Well, sorry to say we didn't run H2H. We got a fairly late start. A guy stopped by while I was loading my trailer, then another guy and his wife stopped us at the grocery store where we were meeting up with the other rigs. Ended up not getting on the trail until about noon. Decided to do Woody's Wash first and then we were going to run Upper Woodpecker right into H2H.
However, I ran into some problems in Woody's Wash and I decided I needed a little something easier and less technical, so we did Axle Alley. By then it was about 2:30 and we only had 2.5-3 hours of day light left so we decided to just run Upper Ajax. Started at 3and were back at the tow rigs at 4:30.
The problems: first, my brakes STILL SUCK....bad. I bled them before the trip....little noticeable improvement. I'm going to bench bleed the masters again and go from there.
Second, and more to my dismay....I changed the rear spring rate to 100 lbs. per inch (up from 67#/in.) and ran a longer spring (16"vs. 14") to give me the ride height I needed coupled with the correct distance for the coilover's slider stop. Well, everything looked perfect. Correct height with plenty of adjustment for future mods/weight changes. Perfect D/S length and pinion angle with complete thread engagement on the links. Ride was a little firmer, but nothing I'd call stiff on the fireroads.....BUT, when we got to the trail....holy s*** that extra 33# of rate killed the performance. It wouldn't flex for s***. I'd actually say it was probably slightly stiffer than my old truck. In the first obstacle on Woody's, it caused the rear end to slip right to the bottom of a huge V notch. Here's a pic of the notch (Stacey hasn't loaded our pics yet).
Pretty sure the rocks are all gone from the bottom of the above pictured notch, but imagine having both driverside tries down in the bottom of that notch with the passengers high up on the other shelf on the opposite wall and then driving the entire 2 car lengths through the notch on your side. Not fun.
Then later, rather than flexing up over a big rock on a nasty ledge obstacle, it just tilted the whole buggy in the same way it did on the first obstacle and slid me off line about 3 feet, right into a giant axle eating hole. As I'd drive forward, it would sky the front driver tire, leaning my cage into a big ass rock on the passenger side b/c the passenger rear was in a huge, undercut hole and I couldn't back up. Ended up having to take the cable on that one to get out without destroying the hood and cage on the passenger side.
Needless to say, after those two episodes I was a little unhappy with performance and couldn't figure out why I was having so many problems. So after we finished that trail, my buddy Larry asked what we wanted to do next...AA or H2H? I said AA and Dave was a little disappointed b/c he said AA was kinda weiney now. (He doesn't seem to remember I haven't wheeled in 2 1/2 years). So I replied that as s***ty as my buggy was working I needed a trail that was weiney.
So we headed over to Axle Alley. Dave was right.....AA is beat down. The first obstacle is completely buried in silt. This was the obstacle that I realized my problem with the rear springs though. The suspension just tilted the whole buggy....no body roll or anything, just tilted the whole thing like there were no springs whatsoever. I had to be careful the rest of the day with climbing rocks with both passenger or driver side tires at the same time....it just wasn't comfortable or stable feeling when sidehilling.
The only real obstacle left on the trail is the main waterfall in the middle of the trail and everyone just crawled it. It seems to have filled in about a foot a the base.
Here's an old pic of it:
Even the last waterfall, which used to require a special line and trick to climb is now just an easy hill climb. We finished up AA, had some lunch and decided it was too late in the day to do H2H, so we ended up doing Upper Ajax instead.
Upper Ajax was a lot different than it used to be. Water was actually running down the trail most of the way. It has washed out seriously in places making things harder, except for the 2nd main waterfall where a big rock wedged in at the bottom and silt is filling up the base of the fall...making it much easier. With all the water, everyone, even Larry with his Red Labels, was sliding off line and having trouble climbing some of the rocks and waterfalls. Dave slid off line once so far he hung both front tires off of one huge boulder in the middle of his front axle tube and wedged the rear diff on another. Ended up taking cable to pull him sideways to get back on a line he could continue from.
Having a narrow chassis helped me avoid any damage for the day. Twice on the first trail and once on Upper Ajax, I should've taken major body/cage damage, but b/c I'm so narrow, I avoided even putting a scratch in it. That was pretty nice.
As for the tires.....well, when you're loading the hell out of the sides of them b/c your suspension's not doing it's job, they fold over ALOT. I probably should've put another 1/2 to 1 lb in them, but they held on the rims okay and I think once I resolve the spring issue they'll be fine at 5 and 4 psi.
As for traction....it was hard to tell how the Iroks were working with the suspension not doing it's job. They seemed to work pretty well even when wet. They're no Red Label, but they aren't bad for what I paid. Now that they've raised the price though, I'm thinking of going with a competition tire next.
To fix the springs, I'll end up having to buy a set of Hypercoils (only company that makes a 16" 100 lb spring). I just hope I can get them quickly....I think they only come in blue so I may even pay to have them stripped and recoated red. That should solve all the problems but will not allow for any added weight at a later date. (Not that I have the room for more tools anyway so it may not matter).
Oh, the other problem I found on the first obstacle.....the factory rubber gaskets for the gas tank both leak when you're on your side. I bought brand new ones to try and head off the problem....no go. I think they are leaking through the bolt holes, but I'm not sure. Gotta dick with that too.
Oh, and another thing......I get home, park the rig in the garage and all of a sudden....the power steering pump starts leaking again where I JB Welded it. At least it decided to wait until I got home. The new pump was supposed to be here last week. I still haven't received it.
So, there's my trip report. I'm off all next week. If I can get all the parts this week, I'll try and have it all back together for next weekend.
Sean
I will try and get pics up soon....no guarantees though. I still haven't gotten my wife to upload the pics of the rest of the vehicles on the 12/16 run we did out to Willow Springs.
Here's the pasted trip report:
Well, sorry to say we didn't run H2H. We got a fairly late start. A guy stopped by while I was loading my trailer, then another guy and his wife stopped us at the grocery store where we were meeting up with the other rigs. Ended up not getting on the trail until about noon. Decided to do Woody's Wash first and then we were going to run Upper Woodpecker right into H2H.
However, I ran into some problems in Woody's Wash and I decided I needed a little something easier and less technical, so we did Axle Alley. By then it was about 2:30 and we only had 2.5-3 hours of day light left so we decided to just run Upper Ajax. Started at 3and were back at the tow rigs at 4:30.
The problems: first, my brakes STILL SUCK....bad. I bled them before the trip....little noticeable improvement. I'm going to bench bleed the masters again and go from there.
Second, and more to my dismay....I changed the rear spring rate to 100 lbs. per inch (up from 67#/in.) and ran a longer spring (16"vs. 14") to give me the ride height I needed coupled with the correct distance for the coilover's slider stop. Well, everything looked perfect. Correct height with plenty of adjustment for future mods/weight changes. Perfect D/S length and pinion angle with complete thread engagement on the links. Ride was a little firmer, but nothing I'd call stiff on the fireroads.....BUT, when we got to the trail....holy s*** that extra 33# of rate killed the performance. It wouldn't flex for s***. I'd actually say it was probably slightly stiffer than my old truck. In the first obstacle on Woody's, it caused the rear end to slip right to the bottom of a huge V notch. Here's a pic of the notch (Stacey hasn't loaded our pics yet).
Pretty sure the rocks are all gone from the bottom of the above pictured notch, but imagine having both driverside tries down in the bottom of that notch with the passengers high up on the other shelf on the opposite wall and then driving the entire 2 car lengths through the notch on your side. Not fun.
Then later, rather than flexing up over a big rock on a nasty ledge obstacle, it just tilted the whole buggy in the same way it did on the first obstacle and slid me off line about 3 feet, right into a giant axle eating hole. As I'd drive forward, it would sky the front driver tire, leaning my cage into a big ass rock on the passenger side b/c the passenger rear was in a huge, undercut hole and I couldn't back up. Ended up having to take the cable on that one to get out without destroying the hood and cage on the passenger side.
Needless to say, after those two episodes I was a little unhappy with performance and couldn't figure out why I was having so many problems. So after we finished that trail, my buddy Larry asked what we wanted to do next...AA or H2H? I said AA and Dave was a little disappointed b/c he said AA was kinda weiney now. (He doesn't seem to remember I haven't wheeled in 2 1/2 years). So I replied that as s***ty as my buggy was working I needed a trail that was weiney.
So we headed over to Axle Alley. Dave was right.....AA is beat down. The first obstacle is completely buried in silt. This was the obstacle that I realized my problem with the rear springs though. The suspension just tilted the whole buggy....no body roll or anything, just tilted the whole thing like there were no springs whatsoever. I had to be careful the rest of the day with climbing rocks with both passenger or driver side tires at the same time....it just wasn't comfortable or stable feeling when sidehilling.
The only real obstacle left on the trail is the main waterfall in the middle of the trail and everyone just crawled it. It seems to have filled in about a foot a the base.
Here's an old pic of it:
Even the last waterfall, which used to require a special line and trick to climb is now just an easy hill climb. We finished up AA, had some lunch and decided it was too late in the day to do H2H, so we ended up doing Upper Ajax instead.
Upper Ajax was a lot different than it used to be. Water was actually running down the trail most of the way. It has washed out seriously in places making things harder, except for the 2nd main waterfall where a big rock wedged in at the bottom and silt is filling up the base of the fall...making it much easier. With all the water, everyone, even Larry with his Red Labels, was sliding off line and having trouble climbing some of the rocks and waterfalls. Dave slid off line once so far he hung both front tires off of one huge boulder in the middle of his front axle tube and wedged the rear diff on another. Ended up taking cable to pull him sideways to get back on a line he could continue from.
Having a narrow chassis helped me avoid any damage for the day. Twice on the first trail and once on Upper Ajax, I should've taken major body/cage damage, but b/c I'm so narrow, I avoided even putting a scratch in it. That was pretty nice.
As for the tires.....well, when you're loading the hell out of the sides of them b/c your suspension's not doing it's job, they fold over ALOT. I probably should've put another 1/2 to 1 lb in them, but they held on the rims okay and I think once I resolve the spring issue they'll be fine at 5 and 4 psi.
As for traction....it was hard to tell how the Iroks were working with the suspension not doing it's job. They seemed to work pretty well even when wet. They're no Red Label, but they aren't bad for what I paid. Now that they've raised the price though, I'm thinking of going with a competition tire next.
To fix the springs, I'll end up having to buy a set of Hypercoils (only company that makes a 16" 100 lb spring). I just hope I can get them quickly....I think they only come in blue so I may even pay to have them stripped and recoated red. That should solve all the problems but will not allow for any added weight at a later date. (Not that I have the room for more tools anyway so it may not matter).
Oh, the other problem I found on the first obstacle.....the factory rubber gaskets for the gas tank both leak when you're on your side. I bought brand new ones to try and head off the problem....no go. I think they are leaking through the bolt holes, but I'm not sure. Gotta dick with that too.
Oh, and another thing......I get home, park the rig in the garage and all of a sudden....the power steering pump starts leaking again where I JB Welded it. At least it decided to wait until I got home. The new pump was supposed to be here last week. I still haven't received it.
So, there's my trip report. I'm off all next week. If I can get all the parts this week, I'll try and have it all back together for next weekend.
Sean
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Bet that sounds weird saying huh
Wait...if you changed to the 16" 100# springs and weren't happy with the performace...why will it make a difference which company's spring is in there? Wouldn't you be better off with a 16" with the lower 67# rate?
John,
Rate is determined by taking the top spring times the bottom spring and then dividing by the two added together.
So, the springs I'm running now are a 200 lb lower X 200 lb upper which equals 40000. You then divide that by the sum of the two or 400....which equals 100#/in.
I'm switching to a 100# upper, which will drop the combined rate to 67#/in. Make sense?
BTW, here are the pics:
Dave's TJ crossing the notch on Woody's.....btw, I was wrong about the rocks in the bottom....they are obviously still there. This is how it's supposed to be done.
Here's my start....great line:
The descent:
Being narrow really saves the body.
Larry's Liberty buggy:
Mine:
The ledge obstacle I had to winch out of.....
Sean
Rate is determined by taking the top spring times the bottom spring and then dividing by the two added together.
So, the springs I'm running now are a 200 lb lower X 200 lb upper which equals 40000. You then divide that by the sum of the two or 400....which equals 100#/in.
I'm switching to a 100# upper, which will drop the combined rate to 67#/in. Make sense?
BTW, here are the pics:
Dave's TJ crossing the notch on Woody's.....btw, I was wrong about the rocks in the bottom....they are obviously still there. This is how it's supposed to be done.
Here's my start....great line:
The descent:
Being narrow really saves the body.
Larry's Liberty buggy:
Mine:
The ledge obstacle I had to winch out of.....
Sean
Ledge obstacle after I've fallen in.....
Another angle and kinda shows why I couldn't back up without toasting that rear passenger side axle:
Best pic of the day:
The big waterfall on Axle Alley:
Me:
Larry:
Dave:
'Nother Fall:
Last one on AA:
Sean
Another angle and kinda shows why I couldn't back up without toasting that rear passenger side axle:
Best pic of the day:
The big waterfall on Axle Alley:
Me:
Larry:
Dave:
'Nother Fall:
Last one on AA:
Sean
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So, if your running 200#'ers now, what were you running before you changed it to get you the 67# rate?
That looked pretty close to seeing nice cage damage there on Woody's Good thing about the tri 4-link is that it didn't allow your axles to shift under the body and let the body slide into the rocks.
That looked pretty close to seeing nice cage damage there on Woody's
Good thing about the tri 4-link is that it didn't allow your axles to shift under the body and let the body slide into the rocks.
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Wow, that is really soft...I guess it pays to have a light body. If I tried running 67 or even 100 # rate on mine...it would ride the bumpstops
Well, when you figure it up....it's about 560lbs per corner. Putting the rear unsprung weight at a touch over 1100 lbs. I am curious to know the total weight on my pig. Based on the corner weights and what I know the axles/tires to be, I'd guess I'm right at 3600.....heavy for a buggy, but still about 400 lbs lighter than my Toy was with 1/2T running gear.
Sean
***EDIT*** Actually, I just measured what I've got out there now....27" compressed with the 2 16x200 springs. So, it's actually more like 500 lbs. per corner. Wonder why with the 67# rate it was 560, and with the 100# rate it's 500??
Sean
***EDIT*** Actually, I just measured what I've got out there now....27" compressed with the 2 16x200 springs. So, it's actually more like 500 lbs. per corner. Wonder why with the 67# rate it was 560, and with the 100# rate it's 500??
Last edited:
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This brings up a thought I had. Ok, my XJ has a curb weight in the 3200-3400 range (stock). With all the goodies including the full widths, 38's, an exo, bumpers, and other armor...do you think it's out of the range of an air shock to handle? I was looking at the Walker Evens air shocks, but I can not find any specs in terms of weight carrying cap. and such.
I saw someplace either the Sway-a-Ways or the Fox air shocks have a 2000# cap. I can't imagine that even with all the stuff on my rig it would be over or even close to 8000# without the unsprung weight. Reason I ask, is that whenever I bring up air shocks on other boards...they seem to always bring up the fact that the buggies you see in comps are WAY lighter than mine and that's why they can run air shocks...and that mine would be WAY to heavy a rig to use them. What's your thoughts?
I saw someplace either the Sway-a-Ways or the Fox air shocks have a 2000# cap. I can't imagine that even with all the stuff on my rig it would be over or even close to 8000# without the unsprung weight. Reason I ask, is that whenever I bring up air shocks on other boards...they seem to always bring up the fact that the buggies you see in comps are WAY lighter than mine and that's why they can run air shocks...and that mine would be WAY to heavy a rig to use them. What's your thoughts?
They're right. I don't know about the newest Foxes and SAWs....but the old ones were rated to handle a rig that totaled about 3500 lbs. max. From what I understand, the Big Horn brand air shox will support vehicles in the 4-4500 lbs range. I have friends running the Big Horns on their Jeeps (heck, Dave's got them on his Jeep and you saw how it worked) and they seem to work well. I'm just not sold on air shox. If you have a problem, you're going to be riding on the bumpstop. The only pluses I see to them are cost, weight and size....otherwise a coilover is a much better choice in terms of adjustability, reliability and tunability.
Actually, there is one other big advantage.....low ride height. Coilovers typically need about 1/3 of their travel up at a minimum. 50% would be even better. A 14" air shock can have as little as 3" uptravel and still work fine. Personally, my belief is that most people have discounted uptravel to get a low ride height. If I had any easy way to make it happen, I'd be running about 6" of uptravel in my front suspension. As is, I only managed to get 4". Remember, the compressing tire is the one with all the traction. The more it compresses, the more weight that corner is taking on and the more traction it's receiving b/c of that increase in weight. The drooping tire is not taking on any weight and is generally losing it and thus traction. It may make for cool looking photos, but it really doesn't do much to increase trail performance.
Sean
Actually, there is one other big advantage.....low ride height. Coilovers typically need about 1/3 of their travel up at a minimum. 50% would be even better. A 14" air shock can have as little as 3" uptravel and still work fine. Personally, my belief is that most people have discounted uptravel to get a low ride height. If I had any easy way to make it happen, I'd be running about 6" of uptravel in my front suspension. As is, I only managed to get 4". Remember, the compressing tire is the one with all the traction. The more it compresses, the more weight that corner is taking on and the more traction it's receiving b/c of that increase in weight. The drooping tire is not taking on any weight and is generally losing it and thus traction. It may make for cool looking photos, but it really doesn't do much to increase trail performance.
Sean
