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Hesitant Starting

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by MH_Stevens, Jul 6, 2005.

  1. MH_Stevens

    MH_Stevens

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    My recently purchased '97 FJX80 with 106,000 is a little hesitant to start - hot weather here now. The car seems 100% in all respects but to start the engine I need hold the key for it to turn over 3 or 4 times before it starts OR I need give a little gas pedal and it it will start on the first turn. Is this normal, significat. indicative of a problem?
     
  2. Boston Mangler

    Boston Mangler

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    I got the same "Thing" going on with my 93 FZJ with 119k
     
  3. C6H12O6

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    Same issue here. It seems to be a little worse in hot weather, especially once the truck is warmed up.

    I did notice it get a little better once I hooked the vacuum line on the bottom of the EGR Vacuum Modulator back up. Either that or I got better at 'timing' my release of the key. If it doesn't catch after the first 4-5 times it turns over and I let go of the key, it almost always starts on the first crank next time I turn the key, sometimes running a little rough for 1-2 seconds after it fires up.

    Otherwise, the truck is in tip-top shape, no misses, good mileage (14.75 MPG mixed driving), good idle, etc. I'm interested in what other people have found as a fix for this.

    Steve
     
  4. MH_Stevens

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    Seems we all have something related to fuel starvation at start. I'll replace fuel filter as Job #1. )Air filter is new and made no difference)
     
  5. Nomis

    Nomis

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    Mine does the same thing - let us know what you find out.
     
  6. Bongani

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    Looks like a lot of our trucks have this issue. Sometimes is takes 4-6 swings to start. Other times it is on the 2 swing. If it does not start after the 6th swing to turn the ignition off and immediately try again after which it will take after the first swing. My vehicle is in tip top condition with new air filters, fuel filter, spark plugs etc.

    Search the archives, there has been several threads on slow starting. I have learned to life with it.
     
  7. CreeperSleeper

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    I think all Toyotas are like that. My dads new Tundra is the same way, as was my 2000, 1987 & 1985 4Runners and 1985 pickup.
     
  8. MH_Stevens

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    So then, is it OK to give a little gas pedal (that's what mine needs) despite what the handbook says?
     
  9. alaskacruiser

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    Add mine to the list- has done it since I got it at 35k mi. New fluids, plugs, cap/rotor, pcv, air filter, belts, starter, and same thing. Takes a few turns and sometimes hesitates immediately after starting.
     
  10. maxnharry

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    Same problem here. This is the first time I'm really noticing it though. It's been hotter than he11 here and it cranks fine cold, but once the engine is hot, it takes a couple of cranks to get it going. Some sort of vapor lock problem
     
  11. Bongani

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    Guys

    I have search the forum up and down but just can't seem to get my search criterea right. A few months ago I was wonder about it myself, found the items on the forum and pasted into word. Below us all the responses I got, sorry for the poor formating if it does not look right.





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    #1
    Starting....How many "cranks" before your's starts?
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    #2
    6 max....usually 4-5


    sjcruiser
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    #3
    Avg 3 times on mine.

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    #4
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bkgiii
    6 max....usually 4-5



    ditto


    #5
    It has been mentioned on other posts that 4-6 (which is mine) is normal for the 80s. I don't think 7-8 is extemely unusual.

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    #6
    bout 2-4




    #7
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brentbba
    ditto


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    #8
    Has anyone put a test light in the ignition or fuel system to see if something is delayed when cranking the motor over?
    I have a theory;
    Sounds like all 1fz motors have to crank over a number of times to start. Could the delay be for the oil pump to start pumping before the motor starts?
    Does the motor have to have oil pressure before it fires up?
    Or am I waaaaaaaay out there?


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    07-29-04, 09:14 PM

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    erics_bruisers
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    #9
    beo discussed this before, too -- think he concluded along the same lines of 'toy --

    e

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    07-29-04, 09:25 PM

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    landtank
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    #10
    lately every now and then it will hit on the first one but usually 4 or so.

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    07-29-04, 09:47 PM

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    turbocruiser
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    #11
    Mine starts first time every time. If you are asking how many times the engine rotates, in approaching ignition, I'd say 3 revs, no more than that. HTH

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    07-29-04, 10:05 PM

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    lurker
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    #12
    5 to 7.

    I also don't touch the gas pedal at all.

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    07-29-04, 10:10 PM

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    Beowulf
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    #13
    >> beo discussed this before, too ... <<

    Hmmmm. Maybe I went off half cocked as I've been known to do, but for the life of me I can't remember contributing to the prior discussion.

    I can't even figure out what you guys are counting as a "turn over." It's hard for me to tell whether the engine has made a full revolution or not. I can estimate time with the starter engaged but I cannot count revolutions. Maybe it's just bad hearing.

    -B-

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    07-29-04, 10:15 PM

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    lurker
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    #14
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beowulf
    >> beo discussed this before, too ... <<

    Hmmmm. Maybe I went off half cocked as I've been known to do, but for the life of me I can't remember contributing to the prior discussion.

    I can't even figure out what you guys are counting as a "turn over." It's hard for me to tell whether the engine has made a full revolution or not. I can estimate time with the starter engaged but I cannot count revolutions. Maybe it's just bad hearing.

    -B-


    I assuming the measurement is

    ra - rut = 1

    ra -rut ... ra - rut =2




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    07-29-04, 10:18 PM

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    #15
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beowulf
    >> beo discussed this before, too ... <<

    Hmmmm. Maybe I went off half cocked as I've been known to do, but for the life of me I can't remember contributing to the prior discussion.

    I can't even figure out what you guys are counting as a "turn over." It's hard for me to tell whether the engine has made a full revolution or not. I can estimate time with the starter engaged but I cannot count revolutions. Maybe it's just bad hearing.

    -B-


    I brought it up before. Maybe we sound a like when we talk???


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    07-29-04, 10:32 PM

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    RavenTai
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    #16
    in this thread

    this text was posted from alldata by Gumby (there is a good schematic in that thread also)


    "In the diagram above, when the engine is cranked, current flows from terminal ST of the ignition switch to terminal STA of ECM (STA signal).
    When the STA signal and NE signal are input to the ECM, Tr1 is turned ON, current flows to coil of the circuit opening relay, the relay switches on, power is supplied to the fuel pump and the fuel pump operates. While the NE signal is generated (engine running), the ECM keeps Tr1 ON (circuit opening relay ON) and the fuel pump also keeps operating.



    by this it sounds like the fuel pump will not operate until it sees starter engaging and rotation of the crank shaft. then it may take a bit of time to get fuel pressure up, i have not found all of this info in the FSM yet, need to confirm it there

    my 80 has the longest crank time of any fuel injected car I have owned, possibly a full second? maybe slightly more? I'll try to time it when I get it running right, my '01 chevy momentarily kicks on the fuel pump when the key is first turned to "run" and it starts almost instantly

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    07-29-04, 10:39 PM

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    landtoy80
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    #17
    I like the idea of the oil pump pumping before the motor starts.

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    07-29-04, 10:48 PM

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    Beowulf
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    #18
    The oil pump is gear driven so it's pumping whenever the engine is turning. Maybe the circuit is waiting for a minimum oil pressure?

    -B-

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    07-29-04, 10:51 PM

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    #19
    how did you end up owning an '01 chevy, RT?

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    07-29-04, 10:55 PM

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    Heffenoche
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    #20

    ________________________________________
    I'd say 4-5 on mine. So Stress now tell us yours

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    07-29-04, 11:32 PM

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    #21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lurker
    I assuming the measurement is

    ra - rut = 1

    ra -rut ... ra - rut =2








    THis is what I was thinking!! I am not anal enough to try to figure out actual revolutions, just going by sound.


    As for mine, it seems 3-5 is the norm. I have had vehicles that would start right away, or 1 "ra-rut" so I was thinking there might be something wrong since this was taking longer. But I see that I am not alone.

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    07-29-04, 11:36 PM

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    RavenTai
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    #22
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by erics_bruisers
    how did you end up owning an '01 chevy, RT?



    Bought it right after 9-11-01 when they were offering really low interest, it was my first new truck (or car) and will be the last, may be my last American vehicle

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beowulf
    The oil pump is gear driven so it's pumping whenever the engine is turning. Maybe the circuit is waiting for a minimum oil pressure?

    -B-


    Maybe but I don’t think so because it would crank much longer after an oil change when the filter and pickup tube are empty, after an oil change my 80 starts in the same amount of time as normal the oil pressure follows several seconds later

    I think the pause may be the fuel pump

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    07-30-04, 01:28 AM

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    landtoy80
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    #23
    As there is still oil in the pump, there still could be oil pressure.
    THe fuel pump on some vehicles is run by oil pressure. When the vehicle is up side down the motor dies the fuel pump turns off.

    I will go out and flip the 80 over and see if the fuel pump works.

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    94 HDTOYLCFZJ80 250,000 mi
    87 Turdvalanch'e 3/4 ton 4x4 'The Turd' 50,000/150,000/??? 4sale $500 Sold I have a 14" boat now
    88 FJ62 104,000 My New Toy 'The Rusty TuRD ll'


    07-30-04, 02:13 AM

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    erics_bruisers
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    #24
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RavenTai
    Bought it right after 9-11-01 when they were offering really low interest, it was my first new truck (or car) and will be the last, may be my last American vehicle


    oh - thanks -- i am eligible for a gm "discount", whatever that is -- still won't touch the junk -- :(

    e

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    4 pit bulls - Spud, Precious, Thor & Elvis
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    Life is too short to be metrosexual.


    07-30-04, 03:12 AM

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    landtank
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    #25
    I think ra-rut is a single cylinder passing through compression. So 4 ra-ruts would be the engine firing on the 4th cylinder to pass through compression.

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    07-30-04, 03:33 AM

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    Junk
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    #26
    I think this was talked about in the SOR archives as well. For me about 5 ra ra ra root root pfoot ruts.



    07-30-04, 05:45 AM

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    cruiserdan
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    #27
    Mine always starts before the oil pressure builds, which really weedles me off Usually under 5 seconds. I have often thought of installing some sort of secondary ignition interrupt so that the engine can build some oil pressure before it fires.

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    07-30-04, 05:52 AM

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    landtank
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    #28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Junk
    pfoot ruts.



    You have mexican last night?

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    07-30-04, 05:53 AM

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    Jim_Chow
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    #29
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MrZumma
    ditto ditto

    However, I have yet to start it when it's 30 below.. My answer may then differ slightly..


    On the old toyota mini's/runners, the air mass sensor on the air filter has a relay that closes, which then completes the path to ground for the fuel pump. There is also a fuel pump test plug whereby if you short it out, it'll close the path to ground regardless of the air mass sensor. My mini had a problem where it would have to crank 5+ seconds twice on hot (90+) days and dry air (< 20% rh). Although the starter is the original and I've never changed the contacts in the 18 yrs, it was evident the fuel pump wasn't kicking in fast enough. By shorting that test plug, it now starts instantly, regardless of temp/humidity. Thought the 80 might have a similar device.



    07-30-04, 06:02 AM

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    Newps
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    #30
    Usually I just play with it for a little while and I am good to go.

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  12. Bongani

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  13. MH_Stevens

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    It's not one of those sophisticated computer delay situations. Seems just time to get gas in the system. Try a start with the gas pedal down and I bet you will start first time as I do. With no gas pedal, 3 or 4 kicks needed
     
  14. endcl

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  15. rove_mcanus

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    It's one of those things that annoys me, but not enough to warrant finding the cause.

    But if giving it some throttle helps (haven't actually tried that) then it could be air starvation. 1fz are known for dodgy idle issues, so maybe it's ISCV related.

    I don't think it's normal behavior for any reason like oil pressure, because it's an intermittent fault (happening more often then not though). Sometimes it fires first go.

    The only other likely culprit is fuel pressure. Either a weak pump or faulty drain back valve.
     
  16. endcl

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    May 13, 2010
    I'm still trying to figure this out, I have been through the fuel system pretty thoroughly. New pump and regulator, new lines evry vacuum hose changed, ultrasonically cleaned fuel injectors, fuel pump resistor too. Apart from the distributor itself the whole ignition system is new too.

    I'm changing the coolant temperature sensor aswell on someone elses suggestion and I'm still waiting for a genuine toyota fuel pump to arrive (ordered it through a friend who gets an employee discount).

    If I figure it out I'll be sure to let you know
     
  17. rove_mcanus

    rove_mcanus

    Messages:
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    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2005
    Location:
    Somewhere down under
    How old is your battery?