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[crushers]

my unit should be looked at tomorrow some time and with any luck fixed up in the next few days fingers crossed. i would love to stop in Calgary i have to have some good come out of my summer vacation not starting off to well....i will let you know and maybe my wife and i could stop by

if you can make it the BEST pizza shop in Calgary is just 2 minutes from my door...
and if it happens to be a weekend then we can give the little girl a try in the mountains so you can see how capable these units really are....
cheers

 

[crushers]

Cruisin, if you choose option 2, as i would, all you have to do is write up the bill of sale carefully and not rely on the words "as is" to save your ass. is that so difficult?

here in Alberta if you want to sell the unit "as is" you have to put in writting why it is "as is".
eg.:
the tranny is not shifting right. or the engine is blowing blue or hard starting or the clutch is not working properly or "the heads on these units are prone to cracking, i guarrantee that the head is not cracked to the best of my knowledge at time of purchase but no warranty is stated or implied as to the condition once it leaves the lot". in this case the customer is fore warned that the head could have problems and is not warrantied.
this is to cover both the sellers and the buyers asses.

the idea of "as is" in alberta is no longer accepted as an "escape" clause. this should apply to all provinces but i am not sure that is does.

the idea that he mentioned the head and driving style does show a concern of it's weakness. once again i am not taking sides, i am just stating my take on the situation.

cheers

 

[CanSurf]

I have a 1990 Hilux Surf with the 2LT-II which is the predecessor to the 2L-TE. I have driven my truck through the mountains many times and spent days at a time doing so without any problems. So these engines can definitely handle the mountains if you drive them properly and are aware of their limitations. So if Adam didn't KNOW something was wrong he would have absolutely no reason to think that the truck wasn't fit to drive in the mountains.

I'm not picking sides here, I just thought that one statement was a little unfair.

Just my two cents.

Wes

I am. Adam knew it was going over the rockies. that made it part of the purpose for which it was purchased and was required to be fit. Unless she drove it abnormally or did not follow some special instructions he gave her, he can't blame the driver.

 

[semlin]

I have a 1990 Hilux Surf with the 2LT-II which is the predecessor to the 2L-TE. I have driven my truck through the mountains many times and spent days at a time doing so without any problems. So these engines can definitely handle the mountains if you drive them properly and are aware of their limitations. So if Adam didn't KNOW something was wrong he would have absolutely no reason to think that the truck wasn't fit to drive in the mountains.

I'm not picking sides here, I just thought that one statement was a little unfair.

Just my two cents.

Wes

you are misunderstanding me. I am assuming throughout that Adam knew NOTHING about this problem. I don't have any reason to think he has been in the least bit dishonest or negligent. The point is that the law puts the risk on the seller for a major failure immediately after the sale that makes the vehicle unfit for the purpose for which it is purchased. if you go read the parallel thread in chat i have quoted a couple of provisions from the sale of goods act that maybe explain it.

 

[Cruisin'Carolina]

Thanks, Semlin, thanks Crushers...

I'm starting to see the light now on how the law works up there.

For what it is worth, I still think the regular bill of sale, which has been standardized here I think, still works most of the time. Of course, anybody here can bring suit for almost anything anyway.

Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Greg_B]

nope, i was hoping to use them but i got squat for support from Dan so i went with the replacement 2LTE heads.
i was also toying with doing an automatic head replacement on the LJ78s i was bringing in but the cost was phohibitive so i stopped bringing in the LJ78 all together. i have one last one to sell then that will be it unless it is a special order and even then it will come with a STRONG warning about the head issue.

cheers

Wow. That's quite the change of direction Wayne. It was not too long ago in this forum you were taking me to task any time I tried to mention with an educational intention... the 2LT and known head issues. I know a number of other importers who choose to take the same actions last year, for the same reasons. It takes a knowledgeble buyer to agree to pay the extra if every head is done...and still leave room for a business to function. None of this takes away that the Surf, LJ, or Hilux can be a great vehicle to own...once the known issues are dealt with, and mods made that you have mentioned. Interesting to hear the solid fan did not save the head on that other one too, eh?

champjack, I can not say it better then a few others in this thread over in chat
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=98192 except to re-affirm by this quote

Fix the truck, enjoy it, post some pics here...hang out. Drive it and the cost will be recouped. You sound like a nice guy People here will help you with whatever you need.

gb

 

[Greg_B]

the 3L head is "supposed" to be a stronger casting and the part number for the original head has a change up number. why? i am not sure. there is a possibility that it is due to stronger castings but who knows for sure.
i have tried to gt 3L heads here but no luck so far (and my effort was feeble to say the least).cheers

I would suggest one of Muds more knowledgeble L series folks is harveya. He touched upon the subject here https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=840659&postcount=26 and I believe may have made another comment in connection with a forum he started on the other side of the pond which deals with the Surf. Twas a while ago and I don't fully recall the details.

gb

 

[Previa Diesel]

my appologies for mixing you and Adam up, it was not intentional.
cheers

No offence taken, thanks - though I didn't see what was deleted unfortunately!

Aussie Surf site: http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/forum/index.php Best resource for the 2LTE.

UK Surf site is useless by comparison IMO. (Just went back and had a look to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering....no, I wasn't. What two World Wars have cost us...)

 

[crushers]

Interesting to hear the solid fan did not save the head on that other one too, eh?
gb

it was interesting to watch the fixed fan work. the damage was already done so i had nothing to loose by pushing the truck to it's limit. i have watched enough clutch fans over the years to know how they can fail when needed the most and the fixed fan would keep the temps down at normal MUCH longer than any clutch fan i have seen.
there is one other set back tot he clutch fan that Berni found for us. when deep water splashing the plastic fan blades do disinergrate and instantly. we had ALL the blades torn off in one hole and it took almost a hour before the water temp crawled up to warning levels with just an inch and a bit of blade spoke left showing (it turns out the "F" series 4 blade steel fan is a direct bolt on replacement).
i still love the fixed fan for abusive driving habits it is much more forgiving than the clutch unit.

there are tricks to make these units very tough engines but my biggest problem is the attitude of some buyers and this last case of mine showed me that even with great education, you can not stop the ignorance from costing you money. i could easily walk from this problem, this person had a lot of education, a very long test drive, full guages and they still were able to crack the head. it has been a frustrating road because i really do love the LJ series but as a business i can not afford there shortcomings.

it took a lot of servere abuse to finally crack the head on Berni's bush truck which shows me not all the heads are as weak as others.

have to get back to bed.
cheers

 

[lshobie]

It is a real shame these potential (and often guarenteed problems) exist with these engines. Teaching people how to drive an engine just should never have to be done.

Some people have requested LJ series through me and older surfs, I won't bring them in for them and I recommend other vehicles that won't have the potential problem.

It's too bad - but a reality.

Regards,

 

[crushers]

Teaching people how to drive an engine just should never have to be done.
Regards,

now this i will take offense to...
if i am reading this right you do not "teach" or inform your buyers on the shortcomings of your trucks? you just hand them the keys and "be on your way?".

not everyone wants the HDJ81 and there are those that want 8 passenger seating. the LJ fits that bill perfectly right out of the box. for $10K to $15K less than a similar conditioned HDJ the customer can have what they want or need. many want a coil ride and a quiet engine.
there is no other truck avaiable in diesel right out of the box that will fit this criteria. a gasser 80 will but they don't want 15 mpg (on a good day). so you need to teach them the short comings of the unit and in this case it is how to drive the unit.

what about the HZJ73s you are bringing in? are you informing them about the possible BEB concerns? the weaker center unit?
what about the Carry rig you sold? did you inform the buyer that the oil had to be changed much more frequently than usual (every 3000K or 3 months)? to be extra careful since the cabs are a poor design in a crash?

EVERY unit has it's downfalls. on the LJ it is the head issue, the rest of the truck is one tough unit.
on the auto HJ it is the O/D and lock up torque convertor (anywhere from $2000 to $6000 repair bill).
on the manual it is the sensitive throttle that you need to explain to the customer (driving technique and or a cheap spring mod).
on the HDJ81 it is the BEB (better to replace the engine should the bearings go).
on the BJ74 it is the VSV and the sensitive throttle with the manual (driving technique).
the gassers have a whole different set of shortcomings.

the idea that you need to teach someone how to drive is acceptable to those that want or need a certain criteria met.

 

[dieselDaryl]

now this i will take offense to...
if i am reading this right you do not "teach" or inform your buyers on the shortcomings of your trucks? you just hand them the keys and "be on your way?".

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. Louis is saying that’s its a shame these smaller more affordable trucks have a major design flaw with the engine. There seems to be a very thin margin of error in overheating the L series, whereas cruisers have been known to take all kinds of punishing abuse before major problems show up. You also can't compare jumpy throttle (inconvenience, annoyance) to having your truck puke its guts out 2000k away from home. If there are cases where even cautious drivers are having overheating issues, then to me, this becomes an issue of 'major defect' rather than shortcoming or simple driver education.

It seems to me that less and less of the importers are bringing in the LJs (yourself included, only if the buyer insists). It’s simply an issue of risk management. How many FJLoosers would Toyota would sell if every one came with an EGT and a free driving lesson instructing a person to keep EGTS below 1100 even if that meant doing 90km/h in the mountains?

 

[lshobie]

Umm, well actually I wasn't talking to you Wayne, and I think you missunderstood my post.

Of course I tell them as much as I know and anything that is wrong or could be potentially wrong. The shame in it all is having to tell them that their engine could crap on them if they don't drive it a certain way. Training people to drive a vehicle is one thing, training people how not to blow their engine shouldnt have to be done. There are simple rules to driving and operating a vehicle, take the simplicity out of it and you are asking for problems as you have seen and we are seeing more often with every "my surf or lj just blew a head" post.

Every unit does have it's downfalls, but the heart of the unit is it's engine. Bringing a vehicle in that potentially, and more often than most, has engine problems is not my cup of tea. I researched these trucks and engines at length to see if they would be a good business move and found that - they aren't. Selling a truck that has the potential to crap out through driver error or not - a week down the road or 1 year down the road leaves a s***ty feeling in my bones - that's why I am staying away from them.

You like them, you sell them, you fix them when they break and don't seem to mind - it's your thing and you stand by it.

Regards,

 

[lshobie]

Well said Daryl.

 

[lshobie]

On the 1HZ bearing issues - I tell my customers about it, but I also tell them that it seems to be a bit of an unfounded issue. I tell them I can have them changed out if they want but I leave it up to them - do I recommend it - not at this time. I need more proof that a problem exists on a non turbo 1HZ first.

From what I have read I cannot see any problems in Australia where they abuse and put 100's of thousand of kms on them. I have had discussions with fleet managers and mechanics for mining companies and none of them know of any bearing issues with the 1HZ. None of the mine guys I speak to have a stock of BEB's for the 1HZ - and they put thousands of hard reving hours on these engines. Mine trucks see more abuse than anything on the roads - if there is a problem with a vehicle or engine they will find it.

This BEB issue on the 1HZ seems to be a Canadian made issue - and I am just not convinced.

I do tell anyone looking for an 81 series that the BEB will have to be changed out - that's proven.

 

[Previa Diesel]

There seems to be a very thin margin of error in overheating the L series, whereas cruisers have been known to take all kinds of punishing abuse before major problems show up

.

In defence of the L series, I'd like to point out that these problems are relatively unknown on the earlier 2Ls and 2LTs (maybe 2LT-IIs also). They will sometimes develop cracks between the valves if abused long term, but I've never heard of failure leading to coolant loss etc. etc.

Again, they are a massively strong engine except for the 2LTE head, or is it just the headgasket coolant restriction?

 

[Stone]

.

In defence of the L series, I'd like to point out that these problems are relatively unknown on the earlier 2Ls and 2LTs (maybe 2LT-IIs also). They will sometimes develop cracks between the valves if abused long term, but I've never heard of failure leading to coolant loss etc. etc.

Again, they are a massively strong engine except for the 2LTE head, or is it just the headgasket coolant restriction?

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=68362&highlight=2LT+head+cracking

 

[Previa Diesel]

This bears repeating:

2L engines don't seem to have the same problems, only the 2LT and 2LTE.

Seems that there is a couple of things that cause the problems.

1. The original heads were approx 75 thou thinner on the face than the redesigned ones which meant there was insufficient meat between the valve seats and the waterways.

2. The Turbo caused a more uneven heat characteristic across the combustion chamber.

A couple of know modifications that seem to help on top of fitting the newer heads.

1. Increase the size of the turbo dump pipe (exhaust front pipe) to 3 inches and the rest of the exhaust to 2.5 inches. This allows the exhaust gasses to escape more quickly reducing the head temp on the exhaust side.

2. Remove the EGR valve or block it. The EGR valve causes reduced burn temperature on the inlet side which seems to make the problem worse - inlet side is cooler than exhaust side causing uneven stresses on the head - a big cause of cracking on cast Iron heads.

Also the stock cooling system is at best marginal and often is not working 100%. The Viscous fans often are not working properly, the radiator is often partially blocked etc.

The 2LT/2LTE cooling system has some compplicated pipe runs which make it renowned for getting partial blockages due to all the bends in the pipework and internal waterways. Also it's a real bad engine for getting airlocks.

However on the plus side, the 2L series engines even with the turbo are so overspeced on the bottom end that it is pretty difficult to break. The overall engine design is very good, torque curve is a little narrow however removing the EGR and increasing the dump pipe diameter really helps in that respect giveing really good mid range for a small engine. The engine generally doesn't need to be reved much above 3500 rpm whatever the power curve says, the maximum torque is pretty low down. With a bit of work you get a really goo engine.

My 2LTE that I had in a Hilux Surf was a great engine after I changed the head on it, enough grunt to do most hings although it struggled to maintain 70mph up shallow hills on the motorways however the Surf was a pretty heavy motor. (Ed: Anglicism for "vehicle")

You can really make these engines work well with a bit of thought and not too much money, they take intercooling well, the exhaust mod shouldn't be too expensive and the EGR mod will cost you a cable tie and give you quite a marked difference.


__________________
Cheers
Andy

1993 HDJ80 (1HD-T engine) Brooklands Green Metalic. 160K miles. Factory Winch, Old Man Emu Shocks, 17 inch wheels, 265x70x17 Cooper Discoverer ATR

http://www.landcruiser-rocks.co.uk/index.php

 

[crushers]

the older 2L and 2LT have "dropped seat" syndrome...
i have replaced one head and piston due to this problem.

 

[Previa Diesel]

the older 2L and 2LT have "dropped seat" syndrome...
i have replaced one head and piston due to this problem.

And on a few occasions pre-cups have cracked and chunks fallen into the cylinder for a real "Cap'n Crunch. "

In both cases probably too much heat for too long and inadequate cool down afterwards. (Also improperly fitted replacement valve seats sometimes)

Should they be built idiot-proof? Maybe, but not much is these days.