HELP! Replaced most of my ignition and still no spark!

[SARCruiser]

This is a follow-up to the thread below:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/288589-distributor-fried-thoughts-replacement-repair.html

I got a rebuilt dizzy along with a new coil, cap, rotor, plugs and wires and just put it all in today.

Went to start the truck and it will crank and crank and not even act like it wants to turn over. Pulled out the #1 plug to check for spark and nada, no spark. So we rechecked all the connections and nothing.

Regardless of whether or not the timing is off, it should have spark at the plugs, so does anyone have any idea what could be wrong? Only thing left that is not new in the ignition system is the control module but I REALLY hope I don't have to do that since that seems to be a really expensive part.

 

[tetonguy]

Coil?

Can you get a spark off the coil? Careful not to get hit, hold the coil wire with a pair of insulated pliers while you wear gloves near the block see if you get an arc off it. Coil ground is different from the dizzy ground and the control module. Sounds like one of them is not working right and since you replaced some stuff a bad ground is the place to start. Wiring harnesses still the old ones? Check the connectors carefully if you haven't already. The old ones are solid usually until you unplg them or twist them a bit then they are likely to sho their age real quick. Good luck!

 

[Joe_E]

Might be the igniter.

 

[Michael Hanson]

fuseable links? @cents Mike

 

[rustybucket]

Check for primary voltage at the coil. What is it? Check the primary and secondary ohm readings on the coil. Primary is usally 1 ohm or less. Secondary that depends. Check that your ignition fuses if any. If you have a hall effect pickup in the distributor, check for its output.

 

[SARCruiser]

The resistance readings on the coil are within factory specs. It's looking like it's the control module that sits on top of coil that got fried as well as the dizzy. Tried three different coils, all of which are new or almost new and within the factory ohm readings and there is voltage on the primary coil but it's not collapsing and discharging out the secondary coil and down the wire.

As far as the grounds go, the main grounding wire from the battery to the engine is less than 6 months old and the rest of the electrical connections on the coil and control module look good, a little bit of redneck-rigging from where it looks like the factory connectors broke and a new connector had to be spliced in, but the connections are all clean and no loose connections that I can find.

Now I guess the good question is does anyone know of a good place to get a new control module that won't totally drain my wallet?

 

[D'Animal]

Are you grounding the coil each time you try to start it?

 

[SARCruiser]

Are you grounding the coil each time you try to start it?

Can you elaborate a little more on this? I'm pretty sure that we have been.

We started with everything together and it wouldn't start so we pulled plug #1 out and had no spark there, so pulled the plug and checked the wire, no volts in the wire so pulled the coil-distributor wire and checked that both with a multimeter and by grounding it to the chasis and no spark there so pulled it off the coil and checked the coil with a multimeter while trying to start the truck and the primary coil has plenty of volts but the secondary shows nothing on the multimeter. It's the same story with all three of the coils we have tried.

 

[D'Animal]

Are you bolting the coil down? It should bolt to the inner fender well. Per the FSM, the coil has to be grounded/bolted down.

Is the engine grounded? You should have a large black with yellow stripe wire coming from your engine mount to the frame to the battery. You should also have a ground wire from the back of the valve train inspection side cover to the firewall. You should have a frame to body ground as well, off the top of my head I cannot think of the exact location.

 

[SARCruiser]

Are you bolting the coil down? It should bolt to the inner fender well. Per the FSM, the coil has to be grounded/bolted down.

Is the engine grounded? You should have a large black with yellow stripe wire coming from your engine mount to the frame to the battery. You should also have a ground wire from the back of the valve train inspection side cover to the firewall. You should have a frame to body ground as well, off the top of my head I cannot think of the exact location.

Yes, the coil is bolted down in the stock location.

As for the engine grounds, I'll take a look this evening at the rest of them but I know the ground from the battery runs to a bolt on the side of the engine just behind the alternator, not to an engine mount. Seemed to do ok prior to this issue as the truck ran just fine. Should I relocate it? Do you have pictures of where these are supposed to be so I have a better idea of where to look?

 

[wagon4wd]

I'm with D'Animal on this one, it really sounds like a ground issue. I'd probably even spend a few minutes pulling the grounds and cleaning them up.

Wish I had thought of that before I went to rescue a 62 with the trailer. The non-factory wiring at the battery was giving it intermittent contact, and thus no spark.

It went over a bump just right, apparently.

The FSM has a procedure to test the igniter, I'd check it before ordering one. There are three things to check - power source, power transistor off, and power transistor on.

For power source, with the key on, a voltmeter with the positive lead attached to the positive terminal on the coil and the negative lead on the igniter body should read approx 12v.

For the transistor off, with the key on, a voltmeter with the positive lead connected to the negative terminal of the coil and the negative lead on the igniter body should read approx 12v.

For the transistor on, disconnect the wiring connector from the distributor and use a 1.5v battery, connecting the positive side of the battery to the pink wire and the negative side of the battery to the white wire. With the key on, a voltmeter with the positive lead connected to the negative terminal of the coil and the negative lead on the igniter body should read between anywhere between 5v and something less than battery voltage. The FSM wants this test done as fast as possible (less than five seconds).

 

[SARCruiser]

As a caveat to the below listed results of the FSM ignitor test, I must state that my battery is currently reading 9.99V as it has been sitting for about a month and half right now. (Getting married and the honeymoon kinda got in the way of getting this fixed )

The FSM has a procedure to test the ignitor, I'd check it before ordering one. There are three things to check - power source, power transistor off, and power transistor on.

For power source, with the key on, a voltmeter with the positive lead attached to the positive terminal on the coil and the negative lead on the ignitor body should read approx 12v.

Result: 9.9V

For the transistor off, with the key on, a voltmeter with the positive lead connected to the negative terminal of the coil and the negative lead on the ignitor body should read approx 12v.

Result: 9.75V

For the transistor on, disconnect the wiring connector from the distributor and use a 1.5v battery, connecting the positive side of the battery to the pink wire and the negative side of the battery to the white wire. With the key on, a voltmeter with the positive lead connected to the negative terminal of the coil and the negative lead on the ignitor body should read between anywhere between 5v and something less than battery voltage. The FSM wants this test done as fast as possible (less than five seconds).

Result: Bounced between 7.3V and 9.3V

I'm with D'Animal on this one, it really sounds like a ground issue. I'd probably even spend a few minutes pulling the grounds and cleaning them up.

I'm going to go pick up a battery charger on my way home tomorrow and probably repeat the above once the battery is fully charged but from what it looks like with my current battery voltage,I'd say the ignitor is still good, no?

I would also REALLY appreciate it if someone knows of another thread on here or elsewhere that shows (pictures would be great for me!) or descibes in detail all of the factory ground locations so I can know where all to look. My searches have not turned up much useful and I don't think the PO exactly knew what he was doing

As always, thanks for all of the help!

 

[SARCruiser]

I should probably also note that when I started this whole ordeal, the battery was reading 12.3V. but after sitting more and several unsuccessful attempts to start the truck, it's down to 9.99V.

 

[tetonguy]

You might try pulling all the fuses except those needed to start the engine. Just isolate the ignition system from the rest that way. It might give you a lead on where not to bother looking. Seems like something is pulling down the battery which might also be preventing all the ignition parts from playing nice. What about putting in another dizzy? Was it completely shot? Maybe the new one is defective.

 

[snowboardonsnow]

If you replaced the Dis and the timing is off it is possible not to spark at all. If you pull it out and missed a tooth it wont spark, I didnt read the whole thread of the repairs before this one but your statement "Regardless of whether or not the timing is off, it should have spark at the plugs" is not true.

Maybe check in to that.

 

[wagon4wd]

As a caveat to the below listed results of the FSM ignitor test, I must state that my battery is currently reading 9.99V as it has been sitting for about a month and half right now. (Getting married and the honeymoon kinda got in the way of getting this fixed )

Result: 9.9V

This suggests you failed the power source part of the test and need to rectify that before doing anything else. The fact that your battery voltage is that low isn't helping either.

You might try pulling all the fuses except those needed to start the engine. Just isolate the ignition system from the rest that way. It might give you a lead on where not to bother looking. Seems like something is pulling down the battery which might also be preventing all the ignition parts from playing nice. What about putting in another dizzy? Was it completely shot? Maybe the new one is defective.

X2 on trying to find what is draining your battery. If your battery is good, sitting for a month and a half isn't going to cause it to drop below ten volts.

SARCruiser, congrats on getting married.

 

[SARCruiser]

This suggests you failed the power source part of the test and need to rectify that before doing anything else. The fact that your battery voltage is that low isn't helping either.



X2 on trying to find what is draining your battery. If your battery is good, sitting for a month and a half isn't going to cause it to drop below ten volts.

SARCruiser, congrats on getting married.

My guess is that the battery voltage dropped because we left the keys in the ignition with the radio on but the volume down all the way for a day or so

Hooked up a charger and got the battery back up to 13.7V and re-did the tests.

Power source test: 12.68V

Transistor off: 12.6V

Transistor on: Drops to 12.3V for about a half second and then comes back up to 12.6 and stays there.

If it's only dropping ~ 0.3V with the transistor on, that not exactly good is it?

I checked all my grounds and they are all there and intact and look like they are in good enough shape. Took a wire brush and cleaned up the contacts but like I said, they looked pretty ok to begin with. The only one I'm a little concerned about is the battery ground. Instead of going to the fender and then to the engine mount, it looks like the PO replaced it with a solid single wire from the battery negative to a bolt on the cylinder head right behind the alternator. Been like that for the couple of years since I bought the truck so I dunno

 

[SARCruiser]

Just an update: Had it towed to John at Coyote Cruisers here in Fort Collins today to get a good looking over and hopefully kill this gremlin that has been running me around my ignition system. I'm leaning toward the ignitor but I have a hard time shelling out a few hundred bucks on a new one without knowing that it will fix the problem. I'll post up what John finds so there can actually be a resolution to this thread.

 

[SARCruiser]

Final verdict:

Crappy redneck wiring job by the PO between the coil and the ignitor. Basically the insulation on the wires and splices broke down and were creating micro-shorts all over the place keeping the ignitor from signalling the coil to discharge.

Solution: Coyote John rebuilt a small portion of the ignition wiring harness and she runs great!

Hope this helps someone in the future!