RESOLVED: Headlight Issue - High Beams, but now low beams, through IPF Harness - Bad Relay (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter RWBeringer4x4
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- #22
Yep been there - I think I have some Hella part numbers identified that might work if I can’t find something locally. What’s really throwing me is the changeover relay. I don’t see many listed specifically as “changeover” anywhere - but there are many with wiring diagrams that match (ie: 87a normally open, 87 normally closed). So I’m guessing changeover means one side of the relay is always “active” (instead of a normally open relay being inactive until triggered). Changeover means currently flows one way by default then, when triggered, switches to the other terminal, but it’s never in an “open/off” state. Totally guessing.
These sites also list these as dual amperage (ie: 40/20A, vs 20/40A) on what I think are changeovers and I can’t figure out if there’s truly a difference between those two designations or what the dual specification means. Many of the replacements also list a direction of current and a polarity and the ProQuip site doesn’t specify.
There’s a good chance I am overthinking this and should just grab something with the same wiring diagram listed on the top, but this is how I learn. I hate replacing parts when I’m not really sure how/why they work in the first place. So this is all very educational!
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- #23
Alright, I struck out at Pasco and, after dropping by 3 local auto parts stores and receiving deer-in-headlights stares from the employees there when I didn't have a make and model to search on, I've ordered some Hella Relays that I THINK will work as replacements. The Normally-open relays are 4-prong instead of 5, but looking at the wiring harness, the 87a center terminal is empty anyway.
What has been truly confusing about this is the changeover relay - according to the wiring diagram, this SEEMS super common as it's the relay I found almost everywhere when hunting - but some are listed at 40A, some 30A, some 40/20A and some 20/40A. All share a wiring diagram.
I'm not going to post any part numbers here until I confirm these work on Monday in case anyone else goes down this rabbit hole in the future. Nothing like paying $10 on shipping for $15 in parts
.
I have a strong suspicion that, because the middle terminal is empty, virtually any of the afformentioned changeover relays could be used across all the terminals, and if that's true I could have resolved this days ago with parts from the local store, but I'll chalk this up to a lesson learned, if that's the case.
What has been truly confusing about this is the changeover relay - according to the wiring diagram, this SEEMS super common as it's the relay I found almost everywhere when hunting - but some are listed at 40A, some 30A, some 40/20A and some 20/40A. All share a wiring diagram.
I'm not going to post any part numbers here until I confirm these work on Monday in case anyone else goes down this rabbit hole in the future. Nothing like paying $10 on shipping for $15 in parts
. I have a strong suspicion that, because the middle terminal is empty, virtually any of the afformentioned changeover relays could be used across all the terminals, and if that's true I could have resolved this days ago with parts from the local store, but I'll chalk this up to a lesson learned, if that's the case.
- Thread starter
- #24
Alright the new relays arrived today and I guessed right - the headlghts are all back in business with the new relays. I ordered replacements for all of them, even though only one of the relays had died. I'll keep the other two as backups.
The part numbers I used:
CHANGEOVER RELAY (1st position/marked with yellow dot on the harness):
Hella 931680011 - There were actually a lot of options for this relay, I picked this because it was a sealed unit.
It turns out "Sealed Unit" IN Hella's case means "the area around the prongs is dipped in a rubbery glue." vs. Unsealed (I bought one of each)
NORMALLY OPEN RELAYS (The other two, matching relays)
Hella 007791011 - Not a sealed unit but as I couldn't find a sealed version I was confident would work. This is a 4 prong unit, replacing the 5 prong relay that broke, but both "87" termials on the 5 prong were activated at the same time on the originally relay, and both were INACTIVE when not under any voltage. This is the one that was harder to find, in truth.
I am suspicious that the first above would work in all 3 positions, and I may got try that - since the normally contacted 87a terminal is blank on the harness. So esentially once it received voltage it would "switch" to the plugged in terminal anyway, essentially having it operate as if it were a normally open relay, even though it's a changeover relay. Might experiment with that a bit to confirm.
The part numbers I used:
CHANGEOVER RELAY (1st position/marked with yellow dot on the harness):
Hella 931680011 - There were actually a lot of options for this relay, I picked this because it was a sealed unit.
It turns out "Sealed Unit" IN Hella's case means "the area around the prongs is dipped in a rubbery glue." vs. Unsealed (I bought one of each)
NORMALLY OPEN RELAYS (The other two, matching relays)
Hella 007791011 - Not a sealed unit but as I couldn't find a sealed version I was confident would work. This is a 4 prong unit, replacing the 5 prong relay that broke, but both "87" termials on the 5 prong were activated at the same time on the originally relay, and both were INACTIVE when not under any voltage. This is the one that was harder to find, in truth.
I am suspicious that the first above would work in all 3 positions, and I may got try that - since the normally contacted 87a terminal is blank on the harness. So esentially once it received voltage it would "switch" to the plugged in terminal anyway, essentially having it operate as if it were a normally open relay, even though it's a changeover relay. Might experiment with that a bit to confirm.
Bringing this back from a dusty corner of MUD...
Is what you wrote above true? 87 and 87a are on/off in tandem? Did you prove this true with testing? And since the center (87a) socket was not pinned it wouldn't matter. And and this is NOT typical relay behavior.... normally 87 and 87a are oppositely energized.
I'm confused.
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- #26
Oof this was a while ago!
If you go back to page 1 and look at the photo of the old relay’s wiring diagram (with GJS underneath) I think you’ll see what I MEANT, but I also think I made an error in the statement above. There are two 87 terminals on the original relay - not an 87/87a. I looks as though both 87 terminals were on/off in tandem based on the diagram. So maybe that’s where the confusion lies? I added an “a” where it didn’t belong?
I still don’t fully comprehend this stuff and it has been a while. The center terminal wasn’t used/wired to anything so I never tested the theory - was just operating under that assumption based on the wiring diagram. I guess the “a” designation indicates that it’s oppositely energize from the other 87 terminal?
For what it’s worth, the headlights have continued to work flawlessly on the Hella replacements I put in.
Thanks for jumping back on this thread. I started a conversation over on the TLCA Facebook page trying to find out if anyone has a full understanding of that IPF harness. I'd love to see an actual wiring diagram/explanation of what everything does. In particular the relays.
I had never heard the term changeover in relation to a relay before but I found this:
"A Change- Over relay is the most common type of relay. These have 5 pins and a body with two contacts connected to a common terminal. These are wired to be either Normally Open (NO) or Normally Closed (NC.)"
So the term changeover just added to my confusion.
"A Change- Over relay is the most common type of relay. These have 5 pins and a body with two contacts connected to a common terminal. These are wired to be either Normally Open (NO) or Normally Closed (NC.)"
So the term changeover just added to my confusion.
- Thread starter
- #29
No Problem! Not sure if I helped or added to the confusion with this thread. If you happen to make any progress over on Facebook and find a wiring diagram, put it up over here for posterity. It would definitely help! As far as I can tell I think there is one relay for high beams, one for low beams, and then the 5-prong relay switches between the two, so that you don't wind up with high and low beam powered at the same time.
So when you pull your headlight switch, it sends power to the 5-prong relay (P2512X) first sends power to your low-beam relay. When you push the stalk to activate the high beams, that first relay switches, stops power to the low beam relay and transfers it to the high beam relay instead. The result: low beams turn off, high beams turn on. and vice-versa.
I'm completely guessing, I've done no electrical testing to back it up, but that's the only thing that makes logical sense to me. Of course, if that's all there was to it, you'd think it would be doable with a single relay - but I suspect they needed two prongs available for each light to complete the circuit or something along those lines.
So when you pull your headlight switch, it sends power to the 5-prong relay (P2512X) first sends power to your low-beam relay. When you push the stalk to activate the high beams, that first relay switches, stops power to the low beam relay and transfers it to the high beam relay instead. The result: low beams turn off, high beams turn on. and vice-versa.
I'm completely guessing, I've done no electrical testing to back it up, but that's the only thing that makes logical sense to me. Of course, if that's all there was to it, you'd think it would be doable with a single relay - but I suspect they needed two prongs available for each light to complete the circuit or something along those lines.
Some good info here.... MAYBE the FJ60 diagram is correct for the IPF harness.
forum.ih8mud.com
Headlight wire harness FJ60 and FJ62
Headlight wire harness FJ60 and FJ62--And now for FJ40 I have started building these headlight harnesses again. I've updated the harnesses since these prototype pictures. The harnesses I build now look a lot better. :) After 20 years or so, the headlight wiring in our Landcruisers is just...
forum.ih8mud.com
- Thread starter
- #32
Some good info here.... MAYBE the FJ60 diagram is correct for the IPF harness.
Headlight wire harness FJ60 and FJ62
Headlight wire harness FJ60 and FJ62--And now for FJ40 I have started building these headlight harnesses again. I've updated the harnesses since these prototype pictures. The harnesses I build now look a lot better. :) After 20 years or so, the headlight wiring in our Landcruisers is just...
I imagine it would have to be close, assuming it’s a round headlight 60 and not a quad-square headlight 62…
