Head gasket failure on various makes (1 Viewer)

[Dansan]

I have a 1995 LC and the same year Acura Legend sedan. My LC has 117K miles, no HG issues to date. I bought the Acura with 104K, it had a new radiator at the time and an extensive record of maintenance.

I've read the HG issues with interest here and its also interesting, at least to me, that if you go on the Acura forums for my particular model, there is also a very extensive discussion of HG issues, mainly failure.

Much like on this board, some assert there is no issue with the HG as such, if there is rigorous cooling system maintenance.

From reading the threads here, it seems certain HG failures were right out of the blue. Was a consensus ever reached as to whether there was a periodic failure of the actual HG that occurred regardless of attention to maintenance?

I can see where some aspects of the straight 6 engine stress the HG further, but the Acura engine is a V6.

Is it possible that these types of vehicles are taken for granted to the point where any component failure looks like a catastrophe? Is there a record of who has the highest miles on the LC, 4.5 engine without any HG issues?

 

[sixsracing]

In my experience, V6's of any make are prone to HG failure. There are particular models that are more problematic ie Toyota V6's, Isuzu's, GM, Ford, Chrysler. The Nissan V6's seem to be more stable as do the Honda/Acura.

Head gaskets in general seem to be more of a problem now than they were 15 years ago, but we are getting more and more horsepower out of smaller displacement and generating intense heat.

As far as the LC/LX head gaskets, I don't think they are any more of a concern than most vehicles, probably less.

Coolant system mntnc. and oil changes are a big step to longevity, absolutely.

 

[cruiserman]

Iron block & aluminum head expand at different rates. Something's going to give. Is the Honda motor all aluminum?

 

[scottm]

Subaru 2.5l engines are terrible for head gasket troubles. Search for used Subies and you'll see a lot needing engines or with new engines. Subie has made several modifications without much success. They give out free coolant additive when the head gasket begins leaking coolant, but no help for out of warranty failures. One guy on my Subie list just lost his head gasket at 9000 miles, he's pissed! He traded it on a Heep, still has three older Subarus but never another.

The "experts" on the list think they bored the block too far, recent changes have added buttressing around the cylinders. The theory is that the cylinder walls flex, which weakens the laminated head gasket. I suspect a lot of engines are being pushed to the limits of strength.

 

[Dansan]

Iron block & aluminum head expand at different rates. Something's going to give. Is the Honda motor all aluminum?

I think it is all aluminum and you make a good point about those materials.

As was mentioned though, this seems to be a much bigger deal than on vehicles 15 years ago and I would agree the power generated from smaller displacements does generate a tremendous amount of heat.

Perhaps an average maintained LC has less failure in this area than other vehicles but it still makes rigorous cooling system maintenance a must. My hat is off to those guys who think nothing of changing their own HG but for the average punter, a $2K repair on an older rig is problematic.

We all know what they are worth to us, but if its wrecked or stolen, the insurance company will most likely asign a value we don't like.

 

[brent]

15 years ago maybe people weren't getting the miles out of them that they are today as well...........just something to think about, Subaru's problem is limited to one engine correct, don't think that would stop me from purchasing one??? Have had a bunch with limited problems..........

 

[Dansan]

For most of the 1970's it wasn't common for the average passenger car to go over 100K miles. In fact, the typical odometer ended at 99999, then resumed from "0".

Those motors were never built to the tolerance of a present day Toyota or Honda engine. I don't mean that as any slight against another make, I just don't have any familiarity with them.

Nowadays, people who don't regularly trade vehicles view 100K miles as a sort of midpoint. What they may not realize is that even the vehicles with the best quality reputation still require regular service.

I bought my LC new in 1995, maintained it regularly but was still "upset" when I had to do the front axle. I felt that since I forked over what I did based on its reputation, that should be all.

Someone buying my rig would get a good deal, because of the maintenance but as good as they are, a used one with over 100K that didn't have good records would put me off.

In comparing the 1995 Acura Legend I just bought with my 1995 LC, the Acura owner spent $7,900 in repairs / maintenance up until I bought it (104K). In the same period (117K) I spent $4,800 on the LC.

I hope to get both to 200K without a head gasket replacement!

 

[Landpimp]

I agree with this. up thru 92 all cruisers were cast block and cast head........not many HG problems on those.

Iron block & aluminum head expand at different rates. Something's going to give. Is the Honda motor all aluminum?

 

[scottm]

Subaru's problem is limited to one engine correct, don't think that would stop me from purchasing one??? Have had a bunch with limited problems..........

That engine is in most Subarus, my '99 was the last 2.2l. Most were 2.5 by then, and the 3.0 is recent and not widely optioned. There have been six versions of this engine now, each was supposed to fix the head gasket problem, but now two Forester owners on the list have head gasket trouble with under 10k. I don't think Subaru is the only big car company getting away with this, just one good example.

Oh, I think these engines are all cast aluminum.

 

[sixsracing]

Subaru had head problems as far back as 87' I don't mean the occasional replacement. There was a campaign on S.P.I. 1.8L heads cracking between the valve seats and M.P.I.'s were doing it too. It got so bad that for awhile we couldn't get factory heads for the cars and were looking into getting them rebuilt/welded. Emissions control plays a big part in this problem. We are running much higher combustion chamber temps. because of the leaner mixtures we are forced to run to pass the gov't tests and the MPH wars. Just like anything else in nature, you take something away and something else has to give.

 

[RavenTai]

LandTank did his HG as preventive maintenance and the gasket was already deformed, some have said they are all going to fail at some point question is when, tomorrow? or 200K from now?, overheating will get you there sooner.


The new gasket is redesigned AFIK so far no failures with the new one but not as many out there compared to originals.

 

[cruiserman]

IMO the head gasket is like any other maintenance item. It just typically lasts longer than other seals and gaskets. When I rebuilt the motor @ 146k miles, the head gasket was in good shape.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Head gasket failure experience - general

My 4R blew it's HG at 180, just like the forums predicted. My 15year experience is with audi HG failures, and corporate responses and fixes. As it was explained to me in my audi service training, most of the 'unexplained' HG failures started to occur just as the long life coolants were introduced to the audi lineup (circa '95). Prior to 92 all audi headgaskets were of the fibre type. Post post 95 (92 on turbo 4v motors), audi switched to all metal laminated headgaskets, along with twisted headbolt design, and the failures reduced exponentially.

When I see HG failures in my shop on audis, 9/10 times it's from the mixing of long life red (G12 red/audispeak or Dexcool/GM speak) from the typical Eth-glyc green (G11 blue/audispeak or Prestone green). The silicates in these two flavors of A/F are not compatable, and it's pretty well known that a fibre gasket using red A/F will start to turn to mush if mixed with green A/F. I've pulled a couple audi HG that have had that failure.

I'm a big fan of the G11 (euro version of/and green compatable) blue/green flavors. IME and those of manufacturers the red is hardly 'lifetime' by any stretch of the imagination, nor more pet friendly (green takes a tablespoon to kill a dog, red takes a quarter cup).

My advice to current owners? Whatever your truck came with in terms of coolant, use the same coolant (G12A derivitives and the new prestone is supposed to be compatable with both 11 and 12 - red and green - versions). Expect green to be completely phased out once current stock is depleted (there is a lot of it tho), to be replaced with 12A/Prestone current. Anyone mixing A/F colors should expect clogged heater cores, clogged radiators and possible fibre HG failures as well.

HTH

Scott Justusson
'94 FZJ80 (G11)
'87 4R turbo A/T (G11)

 

[scottm]

By mixing, do you mean not getting the old type out before changing to a new type of coolant? Or is changing over just bad? I thoroughly rinse my system every time I replace the coolant, and changed my Audi 200 to Dexcool many years ago. My dealer-maintained 80 came to me with green antifreeze, as did my wife's 80, I switched both to Dexcool. I'm thinking I should switch her 80 back to Prestone green this year, based on recent threads here.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Scott,

I used DexCool in both the 80 and the Subaru for one cycle and one cycle only (12 mos). I made an offhand remark about having it in the Sube to one of the best mechanics I've ever met (think Sybesma times 2) and he wordlessly walked to his office and pulled out a file of research he'd done on coolant. Basically, the DexCool was codeveloped by GM and its attacking some commonly used materials in cooling systems, bushings and seals. Ironically, the worst off were several GM models. I wouldn't drain it tomorrow, but suggest you not use it for anything really. By mixing, I believe most are referring to things like replacing a thermostat without draining, then topping it off with something else or simply topping off a low radiator with something else (different type). When you drain and such, it is a simple matter on the 80 to backflush the rear heater and dash heater core from an upper heater hose out the block. Then refill and warm, drain and flush again. Takes about 30 minutes extra to do this step but my heater worked better and my head (cranium) felt better knowing I'd eliminated the sludging factor. Now I'm strictly using Toyota Red in both trucks.

DougM

 

[SUMOTOY]

More on Coolants

It's really tough to flush a coolant system properly if changing from G11 to G12 (green/blue to red). Minimally, you need to use a flush agent, and IME, an enzyme cleaner. For audi conversions in my shop (red to blue/green), I use the following technique: Coolant flush in a bottle, remove tstat and get the center out of it, reinstall. Take vehicle for a hot run (30min), then perform the flush with tap water. Then, I get Radiator Ezyme Cleaner from the local mercedes dealer, and do the same trick as above. Fush again with Tap water, then completely drain the system and fill with green/blue and distilled water. Reminder, these are conversions with metal headgaskets. My experience with this in Toyotas with fibre gaskets is limited at best. That said, even if you are just doing a 'same' service, the above procedure works great, btdt.

In general, the problem I have with the red coolants are the silicates tend to get by seals, including radiator end caps, heater valve/core fittings. They also aren't anywhere close to 'longer' life than the green/blue varieties.

Without question, it's certainly safest to use what came in your truck from the factory. According to Toyota TSB PG010-02, Toyota changed from red (G12) to pink (G12a) in 10-2002. They are interchangeable/compatable fluids, and for those running 'red' (G12 - guessing 95 thru 2002), a change to pink (G12a) is going to give the maximum protection in the 'red' family of coolants.

HTH

Scott Justusson
'94 FZJ80 - Prestone Green