Has Anyone Tested The Torque On Rear Axle Lock Nuts?

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Okay, this will lead our learning down two different roads, but, for grins and giggles I tested the torque on my rear axle lock nuts after getting my preload perfect on my rear axle. I did exactly as the FSM teaches - 43 ftlbs on the nut, spin the hub several times several ways, 43 ftlbs again, then as the FSM teaches, loosen the nut and tighten to hand strength and then keep tightening until you get the proper preload and until it is lined up with the index line on the axle housing / axle spindle. Well with my preload at exactly 6 to 6.2 lbs I can tell you that my locknuts are at approx 48ftlbs, yes I repeat 48 ftlbs. I put my torque wrench on the locknuts and tested them to 48ftlbs. My hubs spin smoothly, preload tests the same time after time and everything else looks perfect.

So, the two different roads I mentioned above ... taking this info further, if it takes literally 48ftlbs to get the rear axle setup properly, the whole argument about whether we should torque the front axle nuts to 4 ftlbs (48inlbs) as with FSM method or 10 ftlbs (120inlbs) as with LT's method seems sorta silly and to think that I was one of the ones that stated over and over that 10lbs was "over twice what the FSM recommended" and should therefore be avoided altogether. Now, I've gotten perfect preloads using 54inlbs to 72inlbs over and over and over but again if in fact the rears are regularly at 40+ ftlbs, I think that proves that the fronts can take the 10lb recommendation that LT sorta started for all of us on here.

Thoughts on this??? Has anyone else ever measured the torque on the rear axle locknuts AFTER getting the preload properly setup? If so, what was the torque? :cheers::cheers::cheers:
 
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Thoughts on this??? Has anyone else ever measured the torque on the rear axle locknuts AFTER getting the preload properly setup? If so, what was the torque? :cheers::cheers::cheers:

So. First sorry for the thread resurrection, but I too would be interested to see if there is any sort of baseline for torque on the rear locknut.

I just got finished tearing into the rear axle. Inner seal had failed long ago and bearings were in a gear oil bath. Bearings showed no unusual visible wear, nor did the spindle. After rebuilding/repacking, it took me darn near 80 ft/lb to get the proper preload on the hub.

Took it apart, made sure everthing was seated properly, and put a thin film of grease between the claw washer and the lock nut. Also checked to make sure the claw washer wasnt getting hung up somewhere; it looked ok.

Anyone with more bearing experience comment on if this is way too high since the FSM just says tighten until you get proper preload on hub? Or an average torque on the locknut that people used to get proper preload? Is this something that should warrant bearing replacement or is it "if you can get proper preload on the hub you are good to go?"

Corey
 
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Just thinking this through in my head for a second, the first things that come to mind that could change the outcome here are:
the type of bearing grease that is used
condition of the bearings/races
dry vs wet seals
 
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JFWIW, my rear bearings and rear seals are still in great shape and although I was surprised by how much torque there was there the whole setup seems fine. HTH. :cheers:
 
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Well....

My method after overthinking it way too much was to follow the FSM with the torque/spin/loosen/torque and then adjust the locknut until I got to the lower end of the pre-load range. Once I had the preload set then it was a matter of adjusting the locknut in order to line things up to get the lock screws in place.

In my case I didn't go backwards (i.e. spinning the locknut counter-clockwise) to line up the holes, only forward (clockwise) and my actual ft-lb torque on the nut probably ended up being much like turbocruiser's was although I didn't measure. After overthinking things I figured there really isn't much choice in the matter. You only have so many positions in which everything will line up correctly to get the lock screws in place.

After all was said and done my hubs stay cool to slightly warm to the touch and I can't wiggle the tire so I called it good :)
 
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I wish Toyota had used this system on the front hubs as well. I like it. Nissan did it on some of their older Pathfinders too.
 
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Just thinking this through in my head for a second, the first things that come to mind that could change the outcome here are:
the type of bearing grease that is used
condition of the bearings/races
dry vs wet seals

Indeed.

JFWIW, my rear bearings and rear seals are still in great shape and although I was surprised by how much torque there was there the whole setup seems fine. HTH. :cheers:

Good to know that the setup is still working well. Since I got the right hub preload I'm tempted to just run with it, and check it after a few drives. Hopefully you wont see me on the side of I70 this winter :wrench:'ing. :D

In my case I didn't go backwards (i.e. spinning the locknut counter-clockwise) to line up the holes, only forward (clockwise) and my actual ft-lb torque on the nut probably ended up being much like turbocruiser's was although I didn't measure. After overthinking things I figured there really isn't much choice in the matter. You only have so many positions in which everything will line up correctly to get the lock screws in place.
:)

Agreed, I think the difference between the 40 ft/lbs and 80 ft/lbs on my cruiser was pretty much a 10 or 15 degree turn to get the lockring holes to line up. Thanks all.
 
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Thought I'd add another data point to this thread. After doing the rear bearings over the weekend, I found that it took 45-55 ft*lbs on the lock nut to reach 6 lbs of preload, and then a little bit more on top of that to line up the set screws. This measurement was taken with brand new bearings and the rotor on the hub. I wasn't able to exceed 6-8 lbs of preload no matter how much I tightened the lock nut, so it may just be the nature of the beast. :cheers:
 
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When you work on these you aren't really setting a preload. It's just a guide as to the condition of the setup. The bearings are a hardened steel. I think you would damage the thread long before you could put enough pressure on the bearings to create more than the 8 pounds or so of friction.

I don't understand how people can be driving around with their adjusting nuts at 10 pound. I tried the 'set by wiggling the wheel method' years ago when I first started working on cars, and after only a few miles the wheels were always coming loose. Then one day i set it to 43 foot pounds (i may have misread the fsm ;) ) and no troubles since. Even at 43 foot pounds you still only get 2-3kg of force turning the hub.
 

Feldrian

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Glad I searched before posting my woes.

New bearings, new seals - Only about 5-6lb of preload at 70 ft-lb of torque on the lock nut. Stopped there before risking stripping the spindle threads. I'd thought about taking the whole thing apart, but after reading this I'm not sure what I could adjust to give me more preload other than more torque on the lock nut - if I'd messed something up I'd likely to create either too much preload or zero preload.

Crisis averted. Blood pressure returning to normal.
 
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So. First sorry for the thread resurrection, but I too would be interested to see if there is any sort of baseline for torque on the rear locknut.

I just got finished tearing into the rear axle. Inner seal had failed long ago and bearings were in a gear oil bath. Bearings showed no unusual visible wear, nor did the spindle. After rebuilding/repacking, it took me darn near 80 ft/lb to get the proper preload on the hub.

Took it apart, made sure everthing was seated properly, and put a thin film of grease between the claw washer and the lock nut. Also checked to make sure the claw washer wasnt getting hung up somewhere; it looked ok.

Anyone with more bearing experience comment on if this is way too high since the FSM just says tighten until you get proper preload on hub? Or an average torque on the locknut that people used to get proper preload? Is this something that should warrant bearing replacement or is it "if you can get proper preload on the hub you are good to go?"

Corey
I'm missing the statement of whether the bearings and nuts in these threads were being reused or not. The FSM specs only apply to new, clean parts.

FWIW,
1.) The FSM specs for the front and rear axle locknuts are different because the front is a drive/steer axle and the rear only drives. This means the design has to be different, the parts are different and the loads are different. I used to build and design these axles (drive & drive/steer, not Toyota) for Dana. Our build specs were not the same for the two axles for these (and other) reasons.
2.) Applying any lubricant anywhere near the locknuts or spindle threads will affect the installation torque. This also applies to cleaning the previously applied lubricant - it all has to come off.
3.) If by "measuring torque" what is meant is determining the actual amount of installed locknut torque, I'd like to see this done. It's nearly impossible to do accurately, even in a lab, for the following reasons:
a) the measuring tool has to be calibrated, that means independently verified, and used in a predictable, repeatable way, that means with a machine - it cannot be done by hand;
b) there is too much variability in production parts to use them for testing;
c) used/worn parts do not behave the same way as new parts - this is related to b) above: once a thread is used, it will never "show" the same torque resistance (the torque resistance will be progressively lower every time the nut is tightened).
4.) Used bearings will adversely affect the amount of installation torque required to preload them. The inner/outer wheel bearings are tapered roller bearing and require a specific preload to function as designed. The preload range is fairly large (for a bearing with preload requirements), but it still exists.

Having said all that, it is reasonable to get an idea of how much installation torque is being applied to your parts, using your torque wrench, if:
a) your parts are new;
b) your parts are clean (all of them);
c) you're very careful and do everything you do the same way every time; even little deviations could make a big difference.

With respect to 3.) c) above, the FSM specs were written with the fact in mind that the spindle, and its threads, would be reused, but the expectation was never that it would be done more than a couple of times over the life of the truck. Keep in mind these are consumer products, not industrial equipment meant to last a lifetime. The fact that Land Cruisers actually do last a lifetime is a testament to how well the Toyota engineers ignored the Toyota accountants.

Bottom line: this really is more of an academic concern than an actual one. If it feels right, it probably is.
 

SNLC

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I have set the fronts higher than 10ftlbs. I have then driven 15,000 miles to Panama and back with a 7,000lbs truck.

Zero issues.

I set them up by preload, ie rotational force as per FSM specs. Some take more, some take less. Setup up dozens this way, never had an issue.

Here is the old school test method. Set it up and take for a long drive, preferably at highway speeds where you are not braking a lot. Stop and feel the hubs. Are they hot to the touch? Or are they warm? If they burn your hand, the WB are getting damn hot, likely from to much perload.

Cheers
 
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I have set the fronts higher than 10ftlbs. I have then driven 15,000 miles to Panama and back with a 7,000lbs truck.

Zero issues.

I set them up by preload, ie rotational force as per FSM specs. Some take more, some take less. Setup up dozens this way, never had an issue.

Here is the old school test method. Set it up and take for a long drive, preferably at highway speeds where you are not braking a lot. Stop and feel the hubs. Are they hot to the touch? Or are they warm? If they burn your hand, the WB are getting damn hot, likely from to much perload.

Cheers
The first time I did the rear bearings I thought I had something assembled wrong. As the OP noted, to get the spring gage reading that the FSM calls out, you end up torqueing the lock nut to higher than the 43 ft lbs in the first two steps of the procedure. Then you have to take it a bit higher to get the two locking screws lined up. The hardest part I found was getting the right amount of movement to line up the screws correcting. At that high of a torque the nut tends to jump when it breaks the static friction. Tends to go too far, then back, then the other way, then back, grrrrr. Never had an issue with them with this procedure, but it is a very sharp contrast to the front axle.
 

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