Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!) (1 Viewer)

[jamisobe]

Dale responed:
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[FONT=&quot]Hi Bret,[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I think you might have sent this to wrong person. I really have no expertise in fuel injection.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Take care,[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]***********[/FONT]

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Doesn't sound like he knows.

 

[landtank]

my buddy has a 1999 Camry with a 4 cylinder engine. It is also CA emission. What is unique about this car is that it has air injection. There is a chamber of sorts that the fuel injectors reside nad fresh air is pumped in and then gets injected along with the fuel. This has to be the ideal HHO candidate as the delivery system is already in place.

I got to find me one of these cars.

 

[jamisobe]

my buddy has a 1999 Camry with a 4 cylinder engine. It is also CA emission. What is unique about this car is that it has air injection. There is a chamber of sorts that the fuel injectors reside nad fresh air is pumped in and then gets injected along with the fuel. This has to be the ideal HHO candidate as the delivery system is already in place.

I got to find me one of these cars.

Let the hounds loose...

 

[mot]

I got to find me one of these cars.

Time to upgrade your daughter's ride.

 

[JO MAOMA]

Dale responed:
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[FONT=&quot]Hi Bret,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I think you might have sent this to wrong person. I really have no expertise in fuel injection.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Take care,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]***********[/FONT]


Doesn't sound like he knows.

i apologize, i must be mistaken....

 

[Ebag333]

Here are some pics of the spark plugs ppl requested, as well as some of the disassembled fuel cell. I just got done cleaning it. It's pretty black for only 3 weeks of operation...

Suprised none of the guru's have posted about the shape of the spark plugs.

Any comments?

I did a water bottle test. It took 75 sec for the fuel cell to make 2L of HHO. So 1.6L/min.

Here's the problem with that test.

How much of that is actually hydrogen, and how much is normal atmospheric gas?

I'd be curious to see, because that'd be the real test. A local university should be able to tell you, and I don't believe it costs much (if anything?).

If it's a 2 to 1 ratio of oxygen to hydrogen (for example), then it's actually only producing ~.5L/min.

If it's a 1 to 2 ratio, then it's producing ~1L/min.

But there's simply no way of telling without expert analysis. For all we know it could be a 10 to 1 ratio of Oxygen/Hydrogen.... (which would basically be a nearly useless ratio).

 

[Turtle Master]

best stuff ever ! engine restorer . add fuel milage,no tapping ,no smoking, add hp. no my sweet 96 never smoked. I get 18 mpg w/ hammer down .truck is stripped down to help. don't forget to check the main wire harness next to the EGR . my very first post , love the info on this site .

 

[ETD66SS]

If it's a 2 to 1 ratio of oxygen to hydrogen (for example), then it's actually only producing ~.5L/min.

It really would not be hard for you hardcore skeptics to make a fuel cell and do these tests you desire...

In fact, if my fathers truck is still working this winter, I may try to make my own fuel cell to play with.

The materials to actually make one are cheap.

How much of that is actually hydrogen, and how much is normal atmospheric gas?

When you first screw the plug into the reservoir, yes you would have some air in the gap above the electrolyte. Once the fuel cell starts making HHO, the air will be purged out of the reservoir and into the air cleaner box. I fail to see how the fuel cell can make air from the electrolyte. However, I'm a mechanical engineer, not a chemical engineer. And it's been 10+ years since my chemistry classes.

Obviously some of you won't be convinced until the big auto makers tell you this works by selling you a car with this setup, or you do this yourself... Why keep arguing if you want that kind of proof? You're not going to get it on an internet message forum.

Yes, it can be fun to debate, but many keep debunking with nothing but other internet "proof", lol

It seems I got this kit working, even though I was skeptical and upset my Dad bought it.

I guess I need you guys to prove to me why I'm wrong and it's not actually improving gas mileage, as much as you need me to prove it's actually working. We can't accomplish that over the internet.

The trip odometer & gas pump volume readings are not lying to me as far as I know...

 

[sundaypunch]

I guess I need you guys to prove to me why I'm wrong and it's not actually improving gas mileage, as much as you need me to prove it's actually working.

We don't need to prove anything to you if you are happy with it. Also, you don't need to prove anything to us. You are an unknown and aren't going to influence opinions any more than I would.

If a well known MUD member installs one of these and gets 25mpg on his Cruiser people will be lining up to buy them. Until then people are going to be very skeptical.

 

[jamisobe]

We don't need to prove anything to you if you are happy with it. Also, you don't need to prove anything to us. You are an unknown and aren't going to influence opinions any more than I would.

If a well known MUD member installs one of these and gets 25mpg on his Cruiser people will be lining up to buy them. Until then people are going to be very skeptical.

Speak for yourself. I am interested and I know I'm not the only one.

I am skeptical, but that doesn't mean I don't want to hear about it.

 

[Ebag333]

When you first screw the plug into the reservoir, yes you would have some air in the gap above the electrolyte. Once the fuel cell starts making HHO, the air will be purged out of the reservoir and into the air cleaner box. I fail to see how the fuel cell can make air from the electrolyte. However, I'm a mechanical engineer, not a chemical engineer. And it's been 10+ years since my chemistry classes.

The fuel cell is seperating the hydrogen out of water, right? (Basic chem, H20).

That means that if it's seperating Hydrogen out, the oxygen has to go somewhere, right?

That my point. I wasn't talking about the air gap in the bottle or in the fuel cell (or anywhere else for that matter), but was referencing directly what the fuel cell was producing. My point is that at best, you're likely to have ~ a 2 to 1 ratio of hydrogen to oxygen....but no water is pure (certainly the system has "contaminates" in it, you are using a catalyst), so those will effect what's actually produced. So you could end up with other gasses being produced along with the hydrogen and oxygen.

So while the fuel cell might displace ~1.6L of water in 1 minute, it's highly unlikely that gas is 100% hydrogen. Frankly if it was even 50% hydrogen I'd be fairly suprised. Even assuming a 2 : 1 ratio of hydrogen : other gasses (a very high ratio), you're only looking at ~1L of hydrogen per minute, at near peak conditions.

So while the "displacement" test certainly looks impressive, it's only the first step in actually measuring how much hydrogen the fuel cell is producing.

It really would not be hard for you hardcore skeptics to make a fuel cell and do these tests you desire...

One of the mudders on here works at the local University. I don't expect the Uni to have the equipment to test and see what's the air composition (it's fairly small), but I'll ask him and see if he can ask around and find out. If they have the capability, and if the fee isn't terribly expensive, I'll throw one together and see the results I get.

But I'm sure someone's going to say "The Dutchman one is better! It produces at least 10 billion times more hydrogen!"

(Not you, since you're aleady looking at building your own. But someone I'm sure.)

If someone wants to send me a Dutchman one, I'll run the tests (again provided the capability is there) and am willing to pay shipping both ways.

I guess I need you guys to prove to me why I'm wrong and it's not actually improving gas mileage, as much as you need me to prove it's actually working. We can't accomplish that over the internet.

The trip odometer & gas pump volume readings are not lying to me as far as I know...

No one's claiming that your father isn't getting what you say he's getting.

Our concern is more of the actual damage that he may or may not be doing to his rig.

In the one pic you posted (which is focused on the ground, so the spark plug is quite blurry unfortunatly), the plug (to me, and I am only an armchair "expert") looks quite dark. I spent last night going through nearly every thread about spark plugs in the 80's section, and I saw plenty of pics of 80-120k plugs that looked in better shape than the one you posted.

But I don't know how many miles your dad's been running on those (if they've been in there 80k miles, then that'd be a big difference than say 30k). Could you post up some info on your dad's truck? (Milage, miles on the spark plugs, etc)


Heck, I remember my grandfather telling me a story about a friend of his who (back when everyone was panicked about a gas shortage decades ago) was making a LOT of money leaning out engines for folks (all on the side). He'd see up to ~50% improvements in milage. Unfortunatly a few months later several of the folks he had done this to became quite upset when they toasted their engine.....

It can take months for the consequences of running lean can show up. That's why I'm convinced that the "improvements" are mostly (or even completely) due to leaning out the engine, and everything else is just packaging. But that's just my personal opinion, and doesn't mean I'm not curious to see the results.

 

[sundaypunch]

Speak for yourself. I am interested and I know I'm not the only one.

I am skeptical, but that doesn't mean I don't want to hear about it.

I didn't say that he shouldn't talk about it. My point was that someone with 16 posts shouldn't be surprised/insulted when people are skeptical.

 

[ETD66SS]

Ebag, you said AIR. So that's why I was talking about the fuel cell's inability to turn H2O into AIR.

I'd have to look into equipment that could analyze the gas coming out of the fuel cell. I went to the University at Buffalo for my degree, maybe I can find someone there who can help...

As far as the plug, well, I took many pic's with my camera and that's the best I could get.

The truck has 120,000 miles on it, those are his second set of plugs. The first set he changed at 50,000 IIRC, but I will ask him. He keeps track of all his oil changes & tune-ups, unlike me, lol.

I'll have him throw a new set in to see what they look like after a while.

The gas is not supposed to be 100% hydrogen. It's supposed to be HHO...

I would be interested in doing a test, wish I had the equipment.

To all those worried about my Dad's engine, don't, that's my concern... Since I'm not a well known, respected MUD member, you no longer have to read & reply to my posts if that's your requirement to believe any of this information.

For those interested in what I'm doing, I'll keep posting results, good or bad.

I didn't say that he shouldn't talk about it. My point was that someone with 16 posts shouldn't be surprised/insulted when people are skeptical.

I'm not insulted, just want to know why you're reading posts from a 16 post member and having to respond to them telling me you don't believe me. Why waste your time? I never owned a cruiser, and never will. As I explianed earlier, this is the only site I found a thread with an HAFC install, so want to share my results.

I'm sure if a MOD doesn't want me here posting my results, they will tell me.

So for the next person who wants to say that since I'm not a respected MUD member and they won't believe these results, I get it. You don't have to tell me again... I'm not asking anyone to believe.

 

[Driley]

For those interested in what I'm doing, I'll keep posting results, good or bad.

I'm sure if a MOD doesn't want me here posting my results, they will tell me.

So for the next person who wants to say that since I'm not a respected MUD member and they won't believe these results, I get it. You don't have to tell me again... I'm not asking anyone to believe.

I, for one, am interested in your findings. I am also interested in your pond project (amazing work there!!!). Please continue to post the results and consequences of the work you are doing.

Riley

P.S. Are you sure you would never own a Land Cruiser? It would come in very handy around the pond project !

 

[Beowulf]

So for the next person who wants to say that since I'm not a respected MUD member and they won't believe these results, I get it. You don't have to tell me again... I'm not asking anyone to believe.

Relax and stay awhile.

I appreciate your posts and your technical contribution to this thread. The OP is AWOL and, quite frankly, he didn't seem to understand the HAFC system or how it works so I was very skeptical of his information.

OTOH, you seem to be trying to understand it and you don't have a vested interest in selling or installing the devices. You are just trying to make one work for your father and to understand HOW it works and what is going on. This is important information for this thread.

As far as your statement about never owning a Land Cruiser... hang around a bit and we may change your mind.



-B-

 

[sundaypunch]

I'm not insulted, just want to know why you're reading posts from a 16 post member and having to respond to them telling me you don't believe me. Why waste your time? I never owned a cruiser, and never will.

No need to be offended which was my original point. I never said I believed you or didn't believe you. Personally I have no idea if these systems work.

You said "I guess I need you guys to prove to me why I'm wrong and it's not actually improving gas mileage"

My response was that, as a new member with 16 posts, you shouldn't take skepticism personally. If Robbie or Romer posted that they got 25mpg on their 80 the response would be different than that to a new member that doesn't own a Cruiser (or to me).

I don't see anyone telling you not to post.

 

[ETD66SS]

As far as your statement about never owning a Land Cruiser... hang around a bit and we may change your mind

Well, after my pond is done, and I build my house. I plan to grow my own rapeseed and make Biodiesel.

Does Land Cruiser make a good diesel engine that can run on homemade biodiesel?

You can put these HAFC kits on diesel engines, but they don't get you much.

However, I just want to avoid big oil all together and mke my own fuel. I have 45 acres of land, and can get local farmers to plant & harvest the seed for me, and I'll make a refinery.

That's only one of my future projects. I'd also like to make an electric car too someday.

But for now, I wish they would invent the tri-corder already. I'm not sure if I can rent a gas spectrometer to analyze what the fuel cell is kicking out.

 

[Ebag333]

As far as the plug, well, I took many pic's with my camera and that's the best I could get.

The truck has 120,000 miles on it, those are his second set of plugs. The first set he changed at 50,000 IIRC, but I will ask him. He keeps track of all his oil changes & tune-ups, unlike me, lol.

I'll have him throw a new set in to see what they look like after a while.

As for the pic, no worries, I was merely pointing out that the blurryness doesn't help for seeing the state of the plug. But blurry pic > no pic!

As for the plugs, that's a lot of miles on those (~70k), so the state could very well be the age (they still look pretty blackened to me however).

Throwing new plugs in and checking them periodically (along with more--blurry! --pics of course) would really demonstrate whether he's running too lean or not.

The gas is not supposed to be 100% hydrogen. It's supposed to be HHO...

I understand that, but even still, more hydrogen is actually better in a lot of ways (power replacement, etc). There are issues with the temps that hydrogen burns at though (too much hydrogen and you'll start cooking things).

To give a example, Mythbusters tried running a car solely off a fuel cell. They couldn't (they did make some mistakes with it, however, such as no catalyst). The did however run it off straight hydrogen (from a bottle), so hydrogen alone is capable of running a vehicle (which makes sense since people do it with propane).

To all those worried about my Dad's engine, don't, that's my concern... Since I'm not a well known, respected MUD member, you no longer have to read & reply to my posts if that's your requirement to believe any of this information.

Oh don't worry, it's more of self interest.

I'm not insulted, just want to know why you're reading posts from a 16 post member and having to respond to them telling me you don't believe me. Why waste your time? I never owned a cruiser, and never will. As I explianed earlier, this is the only site I found a thread with an HAFC install, so want to share my results.

I'm sure if a MOD doesn't want me here posting my results, they will tell me.

So for the next person who wants to say that since I'm not a respected MUD member and they won't believe these results, I get it. You don't have to tell me again... I'm not asking anyone to believe.

It's kinda along the lines of if some random person walked up to you on the street, and claimed you could get free/cheap electricity, would you whip out your wallet?

Obviously it's a bit different situation, but folks are going to still be skeptical (and with good reason).


And no one here is attacking you personally. People just tend to be....intense....on MUD. You should see some of the other debates that come up.




And anyone who builds a pond for LMB/SMB (did you ever finish that project?) gets a huge bonus in my book.

 

[ETD66SS]

And anyone who builds a pond for LMB/SMB (did you ever finish that project?) gets a huge bonus in my book

I will be done this year. Actually, if the weather is nice this weekend, I will finally finish the digging. But still have a lot of work lining the banks with clay and then landscaping.

Owning a Caterpillar D6C, 225 Excavator, a Ford 575D TLB and a tandem axle dump truck really hits you in the wallet with these diesel prices. Plus I live in New York State, where the prices are just as high as California.

But I have been working on the ponds for 3 years now, it turned into a much bigger project than I had anticipated...

My next project is a big shop/barn with an appartment on the second floor to live in. With a balcony overlooking the ponds of course.

 

[jamisobe]

Well, after my pond is done, and I build my house. I plan to grow my own rapeseed and make Biodiesel.

Does Land Cruiser make a good diesel engine that can run on homemade biodiesel?

You'll find alot of interest in diesels and diesel swaps around here.