H55f mated to 3FE or 1FZ-FE engine, possible? (1 Viewer)

[Stumpalama]

The 2F peaks at 210ftlbs (+/-) at 1800 rpm, at that number, the 3FE is about 25ftlbs (+) less. So I'll say we are both right... But I would not agree that the 3FE is better in all circumstances.
My position is that the 2F is better than the 3FE at lower rmp's (the rpms most utilized when wheeling.
I am building a 2FE to take advantage of the best features of both engines. In my opinion, it is the engine Toyota should have built to replace the 2F in Land Cruisers.

 

[Stumpalama]

Happy new year.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

The 2F peaks at 210ftlbs (+/-) at 1800 rpm, at that number, the 3FE is about 25ftlbs (+) less. So I'll say we are both right... But I would not agree that the 3FE is better in all circumstances.
My position is that the 2F is better than the 3FE at lower rmp's (the rpms most utilized when wheeling.
I am building a 2FE to take advantage of the best features of both engines. In my opinion, it is the engine Toyota should have built to replace the 2F in Land Cruisers.

Check out the chart below. The peak for a 2F is 200 at 1800 RPM. At 1800 RPM the 3FE is making 210. The 3FE has a fairly flat torque curve and even though the peak is higher, it's actually higher everywhere in the RPM range.

Believe me, I like my 2Fs. I run 2 of them. But having driven a 3FE almost every day the last 5 years, the 3FE is much easier to live with than a 2F. The 3FE feels adequate, the 2F feels just OK. If I had a simple and clean way to put the 3FE in my FJ60, I would do it in a heart beat. I may still try the 2FE thing just because that is appealing to me.

Anyway, I could not find a torque/HP chart for the 2F, but I did find this:

 

[RockDoc]

2FEs are (the) poop.

I hear they may even be the key to convincing 3FE exhaust manifolds and FJ55 manual steering boxes to stop occupying the same space.

 

[Lead Head]

The 2F peaks at 210ftlbs (+/-) at 1800 rpm, at that number, the 3FE is about 25ftlbs (+) less. So I'll say we are both right... But I would not agree that the 3FE is better in all circumstances.
My position is that the 2F is better than the 3FE at lower rmp's (the rpms most utilized when wheeling.
I am building a 2FE to take advantage of the best features of both engines. In my opinion, it is the engine Toyota should have built to replace the 2F in Land Cruisers.

The 3FE makes more torque everywhere, from 800 RPM to 4000 RPM. The 2F makes 200 ft-lbs at 1800 RPM, the 3FE makes that at 1200 RPM The 3FE often feels sluggish because it's in front of an automatic.

 

[Stumpalama]

I stand corrected.
I was fairly certain the 2f had better bottom end torque than the 3fe. From what a could gather, the published 2f torque curves are from the original 1975. I'd be interested to see curve from the later 2f. Throw in an AUS spec as well to illustrate the power lost to the US emissions fiasco.

 

[GeologistFelix]

Check out the chart below. The peak for a 2F is 200 at 1800 RPM. At 1800 RPM the 3FE is making 210. The 3FE has a fairly flat torque curve and even though the peak is higher, it's actually higher everywhere in the RPM range.

The numbers in that chart, for the 2F, are for the earlier version of the engine. When it made it into the FJ60, it was 210 ft/lbs at 1800 rpms, and 135 HP at 3600.

Also, where are you finding torque numbers for the 3FE other than at its 3000 RPM peak?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Also, where are you finding torque numbers for the 3FE other than at its 3000 RPM peak?

Off the torque curve.

 

[GeologistFelix]

Off the torque curve.

This one?

Very interesting. Proves my point, though. You were reading the torque curve correctly, but comparing it to the HP/torque of the wrong version of the 2F. the 125 HP/200 ft/lbs values you find in a lot of places are from the original 1975 version of the engine which wasn't as powerful as the final version in the FJ60.

Below 3600, we have to make one assumption to make a comparison: the 2F is a big, torquey straight-6; it's going to have a very flat torque curve, but not quite as flat at the 3FE with its EFI.

So, let's connect the dots between the HP peak (3600) and torque peak (1800), and make some guesses for the low end.

[b]Speed      2F (HP/TQ)     3FE (HP/TQ)      Difference (HP/TQ)[/b]
4000 rpms: (No idea!)      155/204            (no idea!)
[b]3600 rpms: 135/196         146/213            8.2%/8.2%[/b]
3000 rpms: 114/200?        125/220            9.6%/10%
2500 rpms: 97/205?         104/218            7.2%/6.3%
[b]1800 rpms: 72/210          72/210             0%/0%[/b]
1200 rpms: 43/190?         46/200             7%/5%
800 rpms:  26/170?         29/190             12%/12%

(for anyone wondering how I'm getting these HP values, the answer is math; HP = (torque in ft-lbs x rpms) / 5252)

Even with my fairly conservative (under?) estimations of the 2F's torque at the low end, when compared to the 3FE, the difference between the two engines is only rarely more than 10% at any engine speed under 3600.

What does this tell us? Well...
In average driving (seriously, who runs their cruiser to 3600-4000 rpms day to day on pavement?), the difference between a perfectly tuned example of each engine will be completely absorbed by the automatic transmission behind the 3FE.

So, put the 3FE in front of a manual, and it'll do 10% better than the 2F. Put the 3FE's head on a 2F block, and it'll do better than either parent engine.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

That's about how it feels.

What makes the 2F feel like it has a lot of torque is the heavy flywheel. When you put a 5 speed behind the 3FE, it also gets the flywheel and has the same "feel" of grunt that a 2F has. Your numbers bear out what everyone has been saying. Despite the 2Fs reputation for low end torque, the 3FE beats it, or at worst equals it briefly at 1800 RPM.

Still, of the F series motors, the 3FE is the easiest to live with day to day.

You've got me thinking again about a 2FE for my FJ60. I have a complete 3FE sitting in the garage to serve as the efi donor. Hmmm.......

For anyone with a 2FE, how is the fuel economy? I assume a bit better than a 2F?

 

[RockDoc]

For anyone with a 2FE, how is the fuel economy? I assume a bit better than a 2F?

Mine seems to be on par with the 3FE now that it is broken in. Perhaps a touch lower, but not much.

 

[Stumpalama]

I've read mpgs around 16-16.5, which is better than my 2f, for sure.

 

[GeologistFelix]

That's about what people claim at the high end of what a 2F is capable of, freshly rebuilt with a desmog and a Jim C. carb, doing 55 on the interstate without hills.

Doing 55-60, with summer gas, I got 15.3 with my desmogged, Trollhole-carbed 2F which probably needs the valves adjusted, but I haven't gotten better than about 14.5 this fall/winter. I blame ethanol.

Anyway, if a 2FE can get 16 with 'realistic' 60-70mph highway driving, that sounds like a much cheaper way to chase power and mileage than a V8 swap.

Of course, in the everyday RPM range of 1200-3500, a 5.3 vortec is putting out 30-60 more ft-lbs of torque than a 2FE, and 70-100 more than a 3FE (and 80-120 more than a 2F). And it'll get 16mpg easily, driving gently.

Just for fun: at 1800 rpms, the 5.3 is putting out as much horsepower as the 2F is at 2500, and the 3FE is at 2400ish. And if you really want to, it'll spin up to 5k quite happily and put out twice the 2F's peak horsepower.

 

[Stumpalama]

But a 2fe is a hell of a lot cooler. Plus it's still all Toyota (for what that's worth). While not a purist, I subscribe to the idea that the heart of a Land Cruiser is the engine and frame. I have plenty of non-Toyota bits on my rig, but I have an irrational aversion to a chevy engine or trans or axles on my rig.

 

[Stumpalama]

I got 16+ mpg once when I drove 8 hrs all hiway from Hilton Head to Norfolk. It was a cool damp day and just seemed to want to cruise all day. I typically get around 15 mpg when I keep it tuned up. I am fully smogged with headers.

 

[mcollins]

Here is the real scoop.

The 3FE is better in all circumstances. It starts easier, runs stronger and makes better power and torque at all RPM. THe 20 HP does not sound like much but it's a critical 20 hp because it feels significantly more powerful than even a fresh 2F. A 2FE would be that much better. In this country the 3FE got emasculated by the A440 transmission but with a 5 speed it's very acceptable.

An added benefit is that the 3FE passes smog easily, while with the 2F it is always chancy.

With regards to the H55f 5 speed, it is basically a bolt up to the 3FE. You need a 2F bellhousing, a clutch, a pilot bearing and the throwout bearing components and the tranny will work. You also need the pedal bucket from an FJ60 (recommend later FJ60 pedal bucket but either will work), and the hydraulics. It is the best thing you can do to improve an FJ62. Really it's a huge change and much better.

I am thinking of getting an H55,,,, I have a 77 FJ 40, upgraded to a 3FE, now I am thinking I want 5 speeds, cause driving 55 mph isnt fun,,, (not in a 35 mph zone) Sounds like it will swap over straight???
Mike

 

[elripster]

I can comment on the 3fe since I swapped one in my 60. Yes it will have a very noticeable improvement in everything over your well tuned 2F assuming you are comparing to a well tuned 3FE. Heck, my 3FE has had a lot of issues (harness was tampered with. making me chase the wrong things for a long time...) and it still just blows away my desmogged 2F.

The 3FE is a higher compression engine (more efficient) and the higher cylinder pressures make up for the shorter crank throw in the torque department while allowing at least 1000 more useful RPM and more power because of that.

My 3FE with bad O2's still passed CA smog.

I just ordered an H55F so I can enjoy some lower RPM's when cruising at 75 MPH (I have regeared to 4.11's w/ 33's.) which the 3FE will do much more enthusiastically than the 2F.

A 2FE would be the outstanding but one only has so much time for so many mods.

Frank

 

[Stumpalama]

You will need to account for an e-brake since you lose the t-case brake going with the H55. So, you'll need '79 and newer rear axle and a split t-case since the output of the H55 won't mate up to the 1 piece t-case input gear. You also may have to move the frame cross bar back and modify your drive shafts to account for the extra length of the drive line.

So, no, not a straight swap over

 

[chris777]

Great thread. What are the list of parts i would need to find in order to convert my 2F to a 2FE? I assume that all of them would have to be used. There are no aftermarket parts, right?

 

[HemiAlex]

FJCO 1FZ-H55F Bell Housing

*Made on demand. Ships 3-4 weeks from order. The FJCO 1FZ to 5-speed Manual Transmission Bell Housing is the solution for enthusiasts who have dreamed of a manual transmission behind their 1FZ engine! Users can mate our bell housing to the readily-available, and proven, Toyota H55F 5-speed...

store.fj.co

The parts are there, but that’s just one piece of the puzzle.