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h e l p ! starting/shut down trouble.

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by snowcruiser, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. snowcruiser

    snowcruiser

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    This happened once before and never repeated itself until today. I went to start the warm engine on my 1996 FZJ 80 with 73K miles. The engine started but the lights on the dash (brake, engine oil, AT oil, etc.) that come on momentarily when you initially start the vehicle remained on constantly. I went to shut the vehicle off and removed the key but the starter kept turning over. I reinserted the key and turned on the ignition and the engine started, the starter stopped but the dash warning lights remained on so I shut off the ignition switch removed the key and the starter began turning again. This cycle continued until finally I disconnected the negative ground from the battery just to shut off the engine. When reconnected, the starter began turning again and the key was still in my pocket ??? I then disconnected the negative terminal again to shut the truck off and waited several minutes. I hit the starter a few times with a mallet thinking it was maybe stuck, and reconnected the negative terminal with no unordinary starter turning. I got inside and turned on the ignition and the truck started no problem and ran correctly. :D Any ideas on what the cause of this problem may be? Probably unrealted but worth mentioning is the fact that it downpoured the other day and my sunroof leaked water through the drain tube and into the driver's side foot well. I removed the carpet and dried this out yesterday without any problem. I am all ears to your wisdom and advice. Thanks in advance for the many suggestions, critique, and criticism I will no doubt get in response. ???
     
  2. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    Your starter contacts are TOAST. Replace them and the plunger OR the starter, NOW.
    The contacts welded themselves in the on postition. Your wack broke them loose (this time).

    Fix it now or you will be in for a brutal electrical bill.



    D-
     
  3. Photoman

    Photoman SILVER Star

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    Snow-
    You probably need the classic solenoid/starter contacts rebuild. Do a search. There have been numerous posts on this one. Hope this helps.
    Bill
     
  4. erics_bruisers

    erics_bruisers

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    are you sure your truck doesn't say "Discovery" on the back of it??

    :) :) :)
     
  5. Shortbus

    Shortbus

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    C-Dan...

    I did a search and came up with this bit of advice in one of your previous msgs.....

    "the 93 models are not as prone to that. They have a 2.2 KW starter as opposed to the 2.0KW unit used in 94 up. the 2.2 KW was only used on 93's. If any of you have 93's I would recommend that you hang on to the cores if you choose to replace the starter as the 2.2KW starter is not available in reman. You get a 2.0KW to replace it with. I would overhaul the 2.2KW and save it for a rainy day."

    I've got a 93 with 136k miles on it. Don't think that the alt or starter have ever been rebuilt. Sounds from your advice that I shouldn't give up my 93 starter. Will the stealership parts department know what to give me for a "rebuild kit"?? I'm thinking that maybe I outta go thru the alt/starter as preventative maintenance.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  6. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    Hmmmm,

    It's nice to be remembered :D

    2.2 kw contacts are 28226-54100 and 28226-76100. The plunger is a 28235-35080.

    Again, the above numbers apply only to the 2.2 kw starter.


    D-
     
  7. Shortbus

    Shortbus

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    Dude.... That was some quick service. :beer: :beer: :beer:

    Guess that means that I outta make a little Saturday project out of it, huh. Now, if I had 4-500 paper towels layin' around maybe I'd take a swing at the Birfields. They aren't leaking, diff fluid looks clean, but 136k and never serviced. Mental note... (buy case of Brakeclean) ;)

    Contacts, plunger, and alt brushes ordered. Thanks C-Dan.
     
  8. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Brad,
    With 136k and 10 years on the starter it would be wise to get the kit and do the repair in your garage. It's a 2 banana job and should take you less than 3 hours if this is your first time. Same advice on the front axle. If you get those two common maintenance items behind you and do an annual coolant flush, that '93 may run 20 more years and 500,000 miles. ;)
    -B-
     
  9. Shortbus

    Shortbus

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    Beowulf,

    Thanks for the advice. I've been lurking this here board since before I bought my 80, and there seems to be TONS of good info here. And you guys are much less violent as a whole, than the other boards I frequent. I'm amazed at the lack of nuclear personal attacks etc... And, it's fk'n brilliant that you can toss in a :flipoff2: here and there for fun. This has become my favorite forum board by far.

    I'm gonna take yer adv on the maintenance items. The Birfs scare the $hit out of me though. I've had 72 cars, race karts, and other funky mechanical stuff, but the LC is a little different beast. I even had to go out and buy some BIG wrenches..... ;) I've got an FSM, as well as the factory electrical manual, so I guess I'm part of the way there. But, part of me just want's to cough up the $980.00 and let the dealer do it right. I love this thing, and don't really wanna chance F'n it up, ya know. :doh:
     
  10. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Brad,
    As we have said many, many times. The front axle is a messy and time consuming job. There is nothing difficult about it. If you have or can borrow a torque wrench and a few other special tools then you can do the job.

    Gumby, Woody, our illustrious hall monitor, C-Dan, and the rest of the guys try to keep this section a fun place where the serious business of loving our Cruisers is mixed with some humour. Lurk or post; it's up to you, but you should enjoy your time here and feel welcome to give your opinion when we hit a topic that you want to contribute something. To me, that's what is great about this board; so many people with so many resources and so much knowledge.

    Trust me, we won't let you mess up the birfield job. :D

    -B-
     
  11. DanKunz

    DanKunz SILVER Star

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    welded starts SUCK!

    Sorry to hear it.

    You can always replace everything and end up with a mostly new cruiser like my 91 =P
     
  12. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

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    Brad,

    Don't worry about doing the axle job. To allay your fears of doing something wrong, it's a couple dozen big parts - few weigh less than 1 lb. So, unless you're so incompetent you're gonna pound a bearing race in backwards ( :D :D) there's really little opportunity to do anything wrong. It's just the most unbelievable amount of dirty grease to deal with you've ever seen.

    On your wet carpet: Look at the bottom of the driver's rocker panel and you'll see a black roundish plug behind the front mudflap. Pull it out somewhere besides your garage so the deluge of water will merely be amusing rather than annoying. Then move the truck to a dry spot and look for several small slits which are meant to drain them but are plugged with dust on your vehicle. Use a pin to clear them. A bright flashlight may help. What's happening is your rockers are full of water and additional flow from the drain is overflowing into the interior. Check the other side as well, but for some reason it's usually the driver's side.

    IdahoDoug
     
  13. snowcruiser

    snowcruiser

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    Thanks for the help C-Dan and Photoman. C-Dan- If you don't mind my asking, what are the part numbers and prices for the starter contacts and plunger vs. a new starter? The FSM talks about inspecting and if necessary replacing brushes, gears, and bearings also. I would like to have all the parts in hand before I attempt a rebuild. Should I get any other parts besides the contacts and plunger? ('96 73K)

    Secondly. Can a 2.2 starter from a 93 be retrofitted as it is apparantly better in cold weather? How about opinions on Mean Green Starters? Cold weather dependency is extremely important. Thanks again.
     
  14. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

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    Snow,

    I paid about $15 for the contacts, and that's all you're likely to need. I think the starter price is around $450. The plunger can be cleaned up with emery cloth, but it wouldn't hurt to replace it - your call. But having all the brushes, gears and bearings on hand would be overkill.

    Yes, a 2.2 will fit your '96, but there have been no cold weather starting issues with your model. Should you be in extreme conditions, you'd be wiser to spend your money on a dual battery setup - spending half what a 2.2 starter would set you back and gaining much more cold starting reliability as well as other advantages.

    IdahoDoug
     
  15. Riley

    Riley

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    Couple of questions here -

    a) Why did his dash lights come on and stay on? Because of the starter contacts? seems unlikely to me.

    b) Are people considering this to be preventive maintenance?

    My list of tasks is getting very long:

    - birfs (done)
    - PHH (scarey)
    - diff breather hoses (this weekend)
    - other heater hoses
    - coolant and other flushes
    - get the roof rack removed before the rust starts
    - now the starter contacts

    Is this because we are all anal OR because once armed with info we all know what might happen ?

    I'm a big Toyota fan but sure seems that there's lots of little stuff to worry about (not to mention the wierd electrical problems I'm hearing about). Sorry to be negative and I love my new truck but man, the list is getting long and doesn't include my mods.

    I'm also a little worried about my wife's reaction when I tell her that it's possible the starter will go crazy and crank and crank until she pulls the negative cable off the battery. ::) Guess I should give her the hammer as well.

    I guess I had better do this job soon too.

    R
     
  16. Shortbus

    Shortbus

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    [quote author=Beowulf link=board=2;threadid=6406;start=msg51750#msg51750 date=1066349375]
    Brad,
    As we have said many, many times. The front axle is a messy and time consuming job. There is nothing difficult about it. If you have or can borrow a torque wrench and a few other special tools then you can do the job.

    Gumby, Woody, our illustrious hall monitor, C-Dan, and the rest of the guys try to keep this section a fun place where the serious business of loving our Cruisers is mixed with some humour. Lurk or post; it's up to you, but you should enjoy your time here and feel welcome to give your opinion when we hit a topic that you want to contribute something. To me, that's what is great about this board; so many people with so many resources and so much knowledge.

    Trust me, we won't let you mess up the birfield job. :D

    -B-

    [/quote]

    I'm up for messy..... no problems with that. I just wanna avoid the front axle locking up at highway speed. :p
    It would be just about my luck to bugger it up that bad. But I've got more tools than an NBA team, so I outta be OK on that part. When it comes time, I'll make sure to RTFM and use the "search" function. You guy's do use "RTFM" here...... don't you?? ;)

    This IS a great site. :beer: :beer: :beer: to all of you that haven't made it a total killing ground. :cheers:
     
  17. Shortbus

    Shortbus

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    [quote author=IdahoDoug link=board=2;threadid=6406;start=msg51817#msg51817 date=1066359116]
    Brad,

    Don't worry about doing the axle job. To allay your fears of doing something wrong, it's a couple dozen big parts - few weigh less than 1 lb. So, unless you're so incompetent you're gonna pound a bearing race in backwards ( :D :D) there's really little opportunity to do anything wrong. It's just the most unbelievable amount of dirty grease to deal with you've ever seen.

    On your wet carpet: Look at the bottom of the driver's rocker panel and you'll see a black roundish plug behind the front mudflap. Pull it out somewhere besides your garage so the deluge of water will merely be amusing rather than annoying. Then move the truck to a dry spot and look for several small slits which are meant to drain them but are plugged with dust on your vehicle. Use a pin to clear them. A bright flashlight may help. What's happening is your rockers are full of water and additional flow from the drain is overflowing into the interior. Check the other side as well, but for some reason it's usually the driver's side.

    IdahoDoug
    [/quote]

    Doug,

    Don't sell me short. I just may be DuMb enough to pound a bearing race in a$$ backwards.... :flipoff2: You know, "Dumber than 2 apes in a coma", I could definitely pull that one off. I'll get over the humongous amounts of grease. A few dozen cans of Brakeclean and rags, will take care of that.

    Thanks for the vote of confidence. :D
     
  18. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

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    Riley,

    I'd bet you could drive another 30,000 miles without doing a single thing with no problems. What happens is 4 of us uncover a certain problem, and the rest of us tackle it as maintenance. These are a great way of getting to know your Cruiser so that you'll be completely confident jumping in the beast for a cross country trip at any time. You'll save a bundle of money as well.

    IdahoDoug
     
  19. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Riley (and others worried about the starter contacts)

    As Doug pointed out, most of the reported starter failures have been in the 90-100k mile range. They fail due to the number of start cycles, not due to mileage. And 9 out of 10 times you get the classic Click-Click No-start, then Click-Click Start. There have only been a few reports of the contacts "welding" and causing the problem where you have to remove the neg terminal from the battery. However, it does happen and knowledge is power.

    This should *not* be considered a 'problem' with the 80s. All starters are prone to failure; it's the nature of the beast. The Toyota starter is really easy to R&R and the parts are readily available and cheap.

    My advice is to wait until you're near the 100k mark before you replace them as PM. If/when you start getting a click-click no start then don't delay; replace the contacts that day or the next. Having them on hand is good, cheap insurance.

    If you're forced to do a trail fix like I was, then you can pull the starter and clean up the contacts & plunger with emory cloth, sandpaper, or a file. I switched the Pos & Neg contacts and got another 6 months on mine.

    -B-
     
  20. Photoman

    Photoman SILVER Star

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    Riley,
    I hope I'm not talking down to you but have to tell it my own way. Basically, it goes something like this. When you turn your key to the start position you notice the dash lights are getting power. At the starter solenoid what you are doing is pulling in the solenoid coil (electromagnet), which pulls in the plunger, which touches the two big contacts. The one contact is from the pos on the battery and the other goes to the armature via the brushes. When the plunger welds to the contacts (were not talking pretty weldin here) it allows that power from the pos on the battery to then power back through the plunger up through the wire to start position on the ignition switch. I included a picture of a starter off a 97 80 that shows how Toyota uses just one wire to power the solenoid coil. (from the start position on the ignition switch). They use the engine/bell housing for ground. Notice in the picture I circled the wire that is connected from the solenoid coil to the armature starter contact. Normally when you let go of the key and the plunger drops out this has no power; but when the plunger welds it is hot. The question can be why doesn't the starter keep spinning? Of course, sometimes it does. It depends on the ugly weld. If if gets enough amps through the weld the starter will keep going til meltdown; or, with less amps the dash lights etc. stay on. Just my opinion. Hope it helps. Sorry about the long post.
    Bill