Front Bearing Replacement

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Searched through a lot of these threads and don't see this as an issue - any ideas? This might apply more to a front axle thread as I also am replacing the CV on this side with brand new Toyota OEM, but if I messed up its more likely an issue with the bearing rebuild.

I cant get the snap ring to seat because of lack of clearance, so I tried my own tool and bent it, thought it might be the soft steel, so I also bought @TheForger's tool and its not budging. I thought maybe I didn't seat the inner oil seal far enough in - however I also sort of assume pulling with the tool would seat it if I didnt (although I could be wrong)

However, I am seeing this, which I think is where the problem is (pic below). There is no clearance from that flange on the CV to the knuckle. I cant find my feeler gauges so I will go to HF tomorrow, but I think this is my issue as they seem to be contacting each other.... yes I did drive the vehicle around the block and can't hear it, but theres no gap there.

Anyone ever run into this?


m6XR5sn.jpg
 

cruiseroutfit

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Which thickness of snap ring are you trying to use? There are 6 different sizes. Do you have a pic ?

x2, might be as easy as a narrower clip.
 
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
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Searched through a lot of these threads and don't see this as an issue - any ideas? This might apply more to a front axle thread as I also am replacing the CV on this side with brand new Toyota OEM, but if I messed up its more likely an issue with the bearing rebuild.

I cant get the snap ring to seat because of lack of clearance, so I tried my own tool and bent it, thought it might be the soft steel, so I also bought @TheForger's tool and its not budging. I thought maybe I didn't seat the inner oil seal far enough in - however I also sort of assume pulling with the tool would seat it if I didnt (although I could be wrong)

However, I am seeing this, which I think is where the problem is (pic below). There is no clearance from that flange on the CV to the knuckle. I cant find my feeler gauges so I will go to HF tomorrow, but I think this is my issue as they seem to be contacting each other.... yes I did drive the vehicle around the block and can't hear it, but theres no gap there.

Anyone ever run into this?


m6XR5sn.jpg
Of course could be to thick a snap ring. The factory snap ring is a 2.2mm. 90% of time I need to use a 2.4MM, that's with all new components that would effect gap, installed. 18% of time, I use a 2.6mm. 1% of time a 2.8MM and 1% of time a factory 2.2mm. Never in any case, have I ever needed any of the thinner snap ring, in well over 100 wheel bearing services.

Your statement about wheel bearing, an mention of oil seal Is very likely the issue.

You may have a few things going on. Here's 3 possibilities:

1) The FDS outer seals' metal, is bent. Just a little that I see, in the damage/marred spot. But this is not your snap ring issue. But could be sign, of another issue!
2) You may be missing the brass bushing in back of knuckle. This would allow FDS outer axle's backstop, into knuckle to far. Which metal of outer FDS seal may rub on knuckle and its seal in back of knuckle.
3) Your may have the oils seal in back of wheel hub, in backward. This push wheel hub out and as such hub flange out. You'd then have a false breakaway preload and a narrow gap.

Wrong! Oil seal is in backward, in the back of wheel hub. Metal hump protruding will hit/rub at back of spindle.
005.JPG


Correct! Metal of oil seal flat side out, and is flush with wheel hub.
DS Kunckle & axle hub install 032 (3).JPG

Metal of Oil seal in backward, will rub on knuckle back of where it rides. Push wheel hub outward.
010.JPG

Brass bushing in back of knuckle. Also notice the seal on outside and needle bearing inside.
PS wheel bearing and knuckle tear down 023.JPG


All to often metal of FDS outer seals, get damaged in retail shipping. They need straightening, before installing. Or they may rub knuckle and or damage seals.
IMG_5509.JPEG
 
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A word about snap rings.

Toyota has six snap rings, that come various thicknesses. They're in graduation of 0.2mm. From 1.8mm to 2.8mm. The FSM directs us to increase thickness, if gap is .2mm or greater. So in some cases, we end up with a very tight snap ring gap. So tight, gap can not be measured. It's best to not tap in snap ring, if gap to small.

What happens if snap ring to tight (no gap), at hub flange to snap ring in axle groove, In a properly assembled wheel hub:

1) Brass bushing it pulls against will wear down . Until pressure exerted by no gap, is reduced (increased gap by ~.01mm). After which wear of brass bushing should normalized
2) If old brass bushing, worn down past usable thickness. The two seals mating together between FDS axle & back of knuckle, may be damaged. The damage that may (not will), is from excessive pressure result in excessive fiction of the seals mating surfaces. We want this seal to float in and out of each other. With no more than .19mm of travel

With all new factory parts, the very thinnest one would every use is the 2.2mm, which is rare. Never do we use those 2.0mm & 1.8mm snap rings. IMHO, they're added to the available list, just to compensate for milling tolerance all hitting maximum allowable, of each components that can effect gap. But I've yet to see that happen, as our stuff not made in China...

What happens if hub flange snap ring gap, to wide. Which FSM states is anything 0.2mm or greater:

1) Seals between knuckle & FDS do not seal properly, moving out (separating) past design limitations.
2) These same seals may prematurely fail, from travelling and separating greater the .2mm.
3) Contaminants may enter seals area. Damaging seals, brass bushing, axle back face brass bushing contacts, needle bearings. Water may even flow thought spindle, pass hub flange splines into wheel bearings.
4) Axle snap ring grove & hub flange face may be damaged, form excessive in and out movement. Resulting in excessive pounding on hub flange and axles grooves wall.
5) Axle splines (teeth) and hub flange splines, wear excessively from sawing (moving in and out) action.

Why replace a snap ring every time remove:

Each time a snap ring is expanded, to install or remove. It's diameter increases (expands), subsequently it doesn't clamp around axle as sung. A loose fitting snap, has less of bit in the groove of axle to retain it. The groove in axle is mostly comprised of splines (teeth). With less of a tooth retaining the snap ring, groove wears and widens fast. The grooves wall becomes round very often in this event (reuse of snap ring). At some point, the snap ring no longer has a good enough bit, and pops off.

This is when we see post, like: I blew my front diff, I can't move FWR or Back. Then @Trunk Monkey says "check your C-clip", it may have popped off! Engage CDL, see it you can move. By this time, likely even long before. The FDS (CV) is trashed. Those now list at Toyota for ~$650 each. Then the labor, hub flange, seal, etc. Very expensive damage, just from not replacing a snap ring for $2.

Bottom line:

Replace the $2 snap ring every time and with proper thickness. Can save$$ thousand in long term repairs.

Don't forget the grease cap is also non reusable. Or you'll likely get water entry, contaminating wheel and axle bearings.

Let the FSM be your guide:
Wheel bearing Preload & snap ring gap 2.JPG


Note: non reusable, is if removed: This does not included wheel bearings, unless race removed from wheel hub. Always return bearing to it's race, which it has seated with.
Steering Knuckle, wheel bearing & axle hub 065 (2).JPG
 
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Thanks for the responses... I'll mention you rather than quote so it doesn't get as messy.

@GVegasG & @cruiseroutfit I am using (well attempting to use) the slimmest one, the 1.8mm. Did my pic not load? I attached a pic of the back of the axle where the axle outer seal seems to be hitting the knuckle. There's not much to show on the snap ring side - the ring wont fit.

@2001LC
1.) Yep, its bent. I had to bend it out because it was very damaged during shipping, like the one in your pic where a section was almost flat. That being said the other side of the truck has way more clearance across that whole outer seal than this side. I cant hear that seal scraping on the knuckle, but there's virtually no space there.
2.) I didn't touch the brass bushing or the seal on that side, they are both definitely there, I made sure all that was ok before re-installing. Can they be messed up without me touching them?
3.) The oil seal was my first thought. I installed it just like you show here, and with a piece of wood to ensure its 100% flush... and I have installed these in the rear so I know the orientation, but I think I do have to pull it apart to double check and see if i messed that up.

All this being said - If the outer seal is touching the knuckle, there's no place for the axle to go, even if I did install the oil seal wrong... which is my big concern now (if that makes sense). Have you ever had to bend those to increase clearance?
 
Joined
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Thanks for the responses... I'll mention you rather than quote so it doesn't get as messy.

@GVegasG & @cruiseroutfit I am using (well attempting to use) the slimmest one, the 1.8mm. Did my pic not load? I attached a pic of the back of the axle where the axle outer seal seems to be hitting the knuckle. There's not much to show on the snap ring side - the ring wont fit.

@2001LC
1.) Yep, its bent. I had to bend it out because it was very damaged during shipping, like the one in your pic where a section was almost flat. That being said the other side of the truck has way more clearance across that whole outer seal than this side. I cant hear that seal scraping on the knuckle, but there's virtually no space there.
2.) I didn't touch the brass bushing or the seal on that side, they are both definitely there, I made sure all that was ok before re-installing. Can they be messed up without me touching them?
3.) The oil seal was my first thought. I installed it just like you show here, and with a piece of wood to ensure its 100% flush... and I have installed these in the rear so I know the orientation, but I think I do have to pull it apart to double check and see if i messed that up.

All this being said - If the outer seal is touching the knuckle, there's no place for the axle to go, even if I did install the oil seal wrong... which is my big concern now (if that makes sense). Have you ever had to bend those to increase clearance?
Hey, just bumping this. Sorry to bother you @2001LC or anyone else, but wondering if anyone has run into an outer seal they had to modify on their axle.
 
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I have seen brass bushing paper thin. These are usually ones where contamination has entered. Either form bad or no grease cap and or bad seals (knuckle to FDS). But as brass bushing wears, hub flange gap increases. It is brass bushing we first replace, if gap to wide ( 2,8mm snap ring, w/0.2 gap).

I've never measured the gap between FDS seal and knuckle, with all new components. But with axle pulled out hard/tight, and little to no snap ring to hub flange gap. I suppose no more 3mm or no less than 1mm.

This used brass bushing is 1mm, the new is 3mm.
IMG_1898.jpeg


Your FDS seal appears to close to knuckle. I can't say if bushing to thin, or seal metal bent toward knuckle (it looks okay). So I'd say likely brass bushing is to worn. It's one or both. You should have, cleaned and lube bushing and needle bearing. So should know condition!.

With OEM FDS/axle in so far, seal touches knuckle. You should have a wider snap ring to hub flange gap. So you for sure have issue with wheel hub assembly, also.

Somewhere you made some mistakes.

"I assume all OEM parts"
These points affect gap, on wheel hub side of knuckle:
Rear oil seal.
Rear large bearing &/or it's wheel hub race.
Butt point on spindle for rear large bearing inner race.
If spindle damged or dirty where large bearing race ride. This could keep wheel hub from properly seating all the way in/back.
The face of wheel hub where hub flange mates (gasket and or gasket surface).
The hub flange being deformed. (pound on)
The hub flanges surface at snap ring face.

Small bearing (outer), claw washer, adjusting & locking nuts and lock washer. All press wheel hub in, reducing gap. The can't hold it or push outward. But small bearing can get hung up on spindle. Which this bearing presses wheel hub in. But if using spring scale to set preload. I doubt you could get even 9lb of pull. Unless both bearings stuck outward on spindle.

In this video, you can see seal to hub flange gap. I call this normal for mileage.
 

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