Frankenturbo! (Safari kit for 3B) (1 Viewer)

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OK, in the process of getting the big 40 project done, I pulled the turbo off of the manifold. It had a few issues, so I figured I'd generally replace studs and clean it up.

In the process, a lot of things broke. Exhaust studs (worse I've ever seen, welding a nut onto them didn't work--they snapped between the nut and the case), a banjo bolt (don't even know how THAT happens)....

So, I decided to take it into the local Garrett dealer to see if they could rebuild it. The engine had a Safari turbo kit on it from Australia (the PO installed it), but the turbo shop basically said it was a T3 variant, but with all sorts of wierd stuff on it. No ID numbers left on it, so no real idea about it's trim, A/R or anything other than it being a T3 of some sort (it does have "M4" cast into it).

And the way the two halves were mated together makes it pretty much un-rebuildable. So, for now, I can make it work, but in the long run, we need to be ready to replace it with something more standard.

So the question is, what T3s make sense for the 3B? It lives at high altitude, and sees a lot of highway miles. I'm definitely interested in the GTX line, too...

I see that GTX3582R, GTX3076R, GTX3071R fit, with options of a turbine A/R of 1.06, 0.82, or 0.63, and looks like the differences between those three at the compressor A/R 0.60 (GTX3076R and GTX3071R), 0.70 (GTX3582R).

So, opinions, comments, ideas? I see that all of the GTX line are free floating, non wastegate turbos, which is something I don't know anything about. Not sure if I should be concerned with that or not. External wastegates seem complicated by comparison to me, and I'm not real sure where we'd tap into the manifold for that either.

Dan
 
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Those turbos are about 2-3x bigger than you want. The GT2052 is the best match overall, you can go a size up if you want to trade low end torque for high rpm power.

If you want a T3 turbo then you're basically looking for a clone off ebay. The smallest one you can find (like for a 1.6-1.8 litre petrol). It sounds like your turbo guy just isn't interested in rebuilding your current one, numbers like trim can be easily found with a few measurements, housing A/R's don't matter to a rebuild.
 
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Dougals right this sounds kinda fishy. To me it sounds like your turbo guy wants to sell you a new turbo or something. Im a nurse and I could tell you exactly what T3 you have. If a freaken nurse can, whats this guys excuse?
Post up some pics of this turbo and how it is "joined". We will see if it cant be taken apart. If it really is screwed you have nothing to loose.
Ive had banjo bolts break before and I just drilled out the old broken bolt and tapped it for a new one I made.
g
 
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It's a highly respected shop, and I was the one who had to suggest trying to buy a new one.

I'll get some pics in a few days when I'm back at the shop with all the goodies. I've been looking at all the ebay T3s, but I really, really want water cooling I think. Since we're up in the mountains, I'm just not sure I trust the oil to do enough cooling for my tastes.

I'll definitely keep you guys posted. I'm tempted to just run it as is for a while, and deal with rebuilding it later if it needs it.

The banjo bolt/exhaust stud breakage isn't what concerns me, it's how incredibly bad every thing on that turbo that I put a wrench to turns out. I'm not exaclty a noob at rusty stuff (in fact, I'd venture I'm very, very good at dealing with rusty/corroded hardware), so to have that many things mess up kind of gives me the heeby-jeebies.

If I didn't already have the manifold and stuff, I'd really prefer the T25 pattern. There are a LOT more "right size" turbo options with the T25 than the T3, from what I see. But, it's what we've got...

Thanks guys, hopefully I'll have updates in a couple days.

Dan
 
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Diesel turbos don't want or need water cooling. All it will do is add more heat to your cooling system when you don't want it.
 

RufusTheDufus

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Besides the T3 clones on Ebay you can look for the IHI turbo that was used on the Ford TurboCoupes with the 2.3l engine. It should bolt onto a T3 style mount and soemtimes pop up on Ebay cheap.

I'm running a cheap .42AR T3 clone on the H in the Troopy. Worked great on the trip to Baja. I've found that keeping it set at a max of 6 psi works well for this engine.
 
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Diesel turbos don't want or need water cooling. All it will do is add more heat to your cooling system when you don't want it.
Go on.....

Won't it end up with bigger temperature swings in general without water cooling, leading to shorter turbo life? How about on shutdown, won't the oil be more prone to coking if the turbo is still hot?

I definitely see the turbo adding heat to the engine, in that in the faux-lux when i head out and it's super cold here, I drive up a big, steep hill on my way into town, and I get a nice, toasty heater pretty quickly (it's after just long enough that the engine is up to temperature for 2-3 minutes before I head up it), but doesn't the water also help cool the turbo instead of wearing down the oil with all the heat?

This is something I need to learn more about. I figured that the oil cooled turbos were just cheaper, not necessarily better. I note that the Garrett catalog doesn't address the issue at all, other than to discuss using the water as a way to prevent coking when the engine is shut down.

[edit] More interweb searching seems to indicate that a simple oil cooled turbo only has the downside of needing to idle more on shutdown than a water cooled unit. Doesn't sound like too much of a downside to me, I already idle my water cooled turbo for 2-3 minutes usually, sometimes longer (I do drive up that 2,000 foot hill on the highway, and then almost immediately pull into my driveway--so it takes quite a while to cool it down).

Dan
 
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Go on.....

Won't it end up with bigger temperature swings in general without water cooling, leading to shorter turbo life? How about on shutdown, won't the oil be more prone to coking if the turbo is still hot?

I definitely see the turbo adding heat to the engine, in that in the faux-lux when i head out and it's super cold here, I drive up a big, steep hill on my way into town, and I get a nice, toasty heater pretty quickly (it's after just long enough that the engine is up to temperature for 2-3 minutes before I head up it), but doesn't the water also help cool the turbo instead of wearing down the oil with all the heat?

This is something I need to learn more about. I figured that the oil cooled turbos were just cheaper, not necessarily better. I note that the Garrett catalog doesn't address the issue at all, other than to discuss using the water as a way to prevent coking when the engine is shut down.

[edit] More interweb searching seems to indicate that a simple oil cooled turbo only has the downside of needing to idle more on shutdown than a water cooled unit. Doesn't sound like too much of a downside to me, I already idle my water cooled turbo for 2-3 minutes usually, sometimes longer (I do drive up that 2,000 foot hill on the highway, and then almost immediately pull into my driveway--so it takes quite a while to cool it down).

Dan
Turbochargers which are made only for diesel engines don't have water cooling. It's not needed. The only ones with water cooling are turbos that are also used on petrols. I've never run a water cooled turbo and never had a problem. Originally my engine had an IHI without water cooling, then running a couple of T25 variants which have water jackets but I don't hook them up.

For shutdown your EGT gauge (with probe in the manifold) will tell you everything you need to know. Just check EGT's are under 200C and it's good to shut down. I've run an EGT gauge for the last 6 years or so and only have to idle down when I've just climbed a serious hill, like a ski-field access road. Don't idle the engine unless it needs it.
 

BreckenridgeCruiser

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Dan, I love my GT2052. I'll let you drive it and see how you like it at the next meeting or anytime you are in town next.

It's on a 2B, but should be the same as a 3b as they have the same HP/T ratings. Slightly less displacement but higher compression.
 
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Dan, I love my GT2052. I'll let you drive it and see how you like it at the next meeting or anytime you are in town next.

It's on a 2B, but should be the same as a 3b as they have the same HP/T ratings. Slightly less displacement but higher compression.
Excellent. I won't know for a few more days if I'll be at the next meeting or not, but I'll take you up on that offer at some point. Shoot, by then maybe I'll have the 40 up here and we can race them, or something. ;)

Dan
 

crushers

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first, i agree with Dougal, you don't need water cooling for a diesel turbo.
but, the engineers at Toyota disagree with Dougal since the 2LTE, KZ turbos come with water cooling jackets and pipes hooked up.
but
have you ever taken one of these lines off while the engine is running? the water flow is ... disgusting.

any turbo is better than no turbo but a turbo that is installed to match your driving style is the best bang for the buck.
 
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IMHO the problem with a Turbo is not the temp, they are developed to withstand extreme temperatures. The problem is the high revs of the turbo when shutting down the engine. When the engine stops the oil pressure drops. If the Turbo is still spinning at high revs the bearings will break through the oil film causing the bearings and seals to go. High temps will have some effect but spin down time is crucial.
 
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Is that DegC or F ? On the 105 I wait till 100 Deg C and the BJ 42 till 130 deg c ?

PS, both probes are pre turbo.
Celcius. My engine idles cold at 130C and warm at 170C so I'm happy to shut it down at 200C.
Your idi engines will lose more heat into the head, so EGT's at idle can be cooler.
 
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The best medicine to ensure a long life for a turbo is strick oil changes. Change it at least every 5000 km, sooner if you idle alot or push it hard. let it idle for at least 1 minute, anymore than that in city driving is a waste, 2 minutes after a highway run.

Realistically most people are not at full boost/temp for very long for the majority of time they are driving.

200 degrees C is plenty cool to shut down, water cooled turbos were originally designed to prevent cokeing of oil in passenger vehicles (gasoline engines). The cokeing was the end result of inferior oil and people not changing it at the prescribed intervals (biggest problem were the people!).

Oil is cheap, change it frequently and engines will live a long time if all other routine maintenance is carried out as necessary.

Daryl
 
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The best medicine to ensure a long life for a turbo is strick oil changes. Change it at least every 5000 km, sooner if you idle alot or push it hard. let it idle for at least 1 minute, anymore than that in city driving is a waste, 2 minutes after a highway run.

Realistically most people are not at full boost/temp for very long for the majority of time they are driving.

200 degrees C is plenty cool to shut down, water cooled turbos were originally designed to prevent cokeing of oil in passenger vehicles (gasoline engines). The cokeing was the end result of inferior oil and people not changing it at the prescribed intervals (biggest problem were the people!).

Oil is cheap, change it frequently and engines will live a long time if all other routine maintenance is carried out as necessary.

Daryl
5,000km oil changes are only necessary on a small range of engines (mainly toyota idi's). On anything else it's a waste of oil. Back in 1986 Isuzu was fine with 16,000km changes on my engine, many diesel engines now are 20,000-25,000km oil changes.

Fitting a pyro will show you exactly how much idling down needs done. In most cases it's nothing. In city driving it's nothing, in highway driving it's nothing. It's only stopping at the top of a hill that needs a few minutes cool-down.
 
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5,000km oil changes are only necessary on a small range of engines (mainly toyota idi's). On anything else it's a waste of oil. Back in 1986 Isuzu was fine with 16,000km changes on my engine, many diesel engines now are 20,000-25,000km oil changes.

Fitting a pyro will show you exactly how much idling down needs done. In most cases it's nothing. In city driving it's nothing, in highway driving it's nothing. It's only stopping at the top of a hill that needs a few minutes cool-down.
Thats a lot of km's on a change! Do you actually go that long?

I would agree with the comments on going to the smaller sized turbos. With 3B's the gears seem kinda long and the rpm does drop quite a bit when going from 3-4 and 4-5 with the h55. If you go big you suffer on highway speeds/hills because it takes too long to get the rpm's up to get the boost up.

I think with the 3B for country that has a lot of hills, its better to go with the smaller turbo.
 
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5,000km oil changes are only necessary on a small range of engines (mainly toyota idi's). On anything else it's a waste of oil. Back in 1986 Isuzu was fine with 16,000km changes on my engine, many diesel engines now are 20,000-25,000km oil changes.

Fitting a pyro will show you exactly how much idling down needs done. In most cases it's nothing. In city driving it's nothing, in highway driving it's nothing. It's only stopping at the top of a hill that needs a few minutes cool-down.
you are assuming that everbody are going to be driving for long stretches of time cycling the engine through h2o boiling temps many times. Stop and go city traffic with the engine not reaching an adequate temp to burn off moisture will require more frequent oil changes regardless of manufacturers instructions.

If you live in a very cold environment, such as Canada, there may be times where an engine never gets to a high enough temp to burn off moisture (water) in the engine so more frequent oil changes are the cure for this.

look at it this way, $50-100 for an oil and filter change or $5000 to $10,000 for an engine change....you make the choice:hmm:

Fitting a pyro should be standard procedure, for normally aspirated or turbocharged engines.

:cheers:
Daryl
 

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