FJ, Liberty,H3,XTerra, Wrangler Limited

[Ocelot]

4.7L iForce V8:

Engine Type: Petrol
Engine Capacity (cc): 4664
Engine Description: 8cyl/DOHC/4v
Maximum Power: 170kW @ 4800rpm
Maximum Torque: 410Nm @ 3400rpm
Combined Fuel Economy: 16.4 L/100km (14mpg US)

4.2L Turbo-Diesel I6:

Engine Type: Diesel
Engine Capacity (cc): 4164
Engine Description: 6cyl/SOHC/4V
Forced Induction System: Turbo
Maximum Power: 150kW @ 3400rpm
Maximum Torque: 430Nm @ 1400rpm
Combined Fuel Economy: 11.2 L/100km (21mpg US)

---

So there you have it, the diesel makes more torque, and peaks 2000rpm earlier than the Petrol, and gets way better fuel economy... There would be no reason to buy the gasser.

 

[sisukid1975]

4.7L iForce V8:

Engine Type: Petrol
Engine Capacity (cc): 4664
Engine Description: 8cyl/DOHC/4v
Maximum Power: 170kW @ 4800rpm
Maximum Torque: 410Nm @ 3400rpm
Combined Fuel Economy: 16.4 L/100km (14mpg US)

4.2L Turbo-Diesel I6:

Engine Type: Diesel
Engine Capacity (cc): 4164
Engine Description: 6cyl/SOHC/4V
Forced Induction System: Turbo
Maximum Power: 150kW @ 3400rpm
Maximum Torque: 430Nm @ 1400rpm
Combined Fuel Economy: 11.2 L/100km (21mpg US)

---

So there you have it, the diesel makes more torque, and peaks 2000rpm earlier than the Petrol, and gets way better fuel economy... There would be no reason to buy the gasser.

Thanks Ocelot. I was in a hurry to get to the airport, and didn't have time to look deeper for the 4.2L specs, so I just took the 3.0 specs and ran with with it. for a 3.0L it stacks up pretty well against a V8, and as suspected, the 4.2L trounces it.


Fred

 

[calamaridog]

Well, since the 4.7L V8 is the only motor available in the US spec vehicle that's what I bought It works fine for what I've used it for and combined with the automatic tranny it works well off road too.

If Toyota introduces the 4.4L V8 Turbo Diesel in the 2007 Tundra HD then you can bet your sweet ass I'll be looking for one out of a wrecked truck for a conversion when my 4.7 V8 is tired.

 

[expeditionswest]

And the V8 in the 100 has more of both (compared to the 4.2TD), right?

John,

I think this post answers your question...

4.7L iForce V8:

Engine Type: Petrol
Engine Capacity (cc): 4664
Engine Description: 8cyl/DOHC/4v
Maximum Power: 170kW @ 4800rpm
Maximum Torque: 410Nm @ 3400rpm
Combined Fuel Economy: 16.4 L/100km (14mpg US)

4.2L Turbo-Diesel I6:

Engine Type: Diesel
Engine Capacity (cc): 4164
Engine Description: 6cyl/SOHC/4V
Forced Induction System: Turbo
Maximum Power: 150kW @ 3400rpm
Maximum Torque: 430Nm @ 1400rpm
Combined Fuel Economy: 11.2 L/100km (21mpg US)

The 4.2 has more torque and at a lower RPM (2,000 RPM lower) and 34% better fuel economy. Due to the lower torque band, a diesel is also more tolerant of larger tires and additional payload without regearing.

The 4.7 is a beautiful motor, and perfect for the US market (the majority), and that is why Toyota sells UZJ100's here.

Most drivers are looking for passing power and acceleration, instead of low end grunt for towing and slow speed trail work. Durability is also not as important, as most SUV's are leased. IFS is also important, as highway ride is more important that trail durability and service complexity (ease of lift and articulation included).

It just comes down to the fact that some of us want our vehicles to work like a tractor and others want their vehicles to work like an estate car, and that is just ok...

 

[FirstToy]

I was really tempted to buy the FJC. Once I see it on the road, it might be too much for me to resist but if they do make a diesel, I think it would be worth the wait.

As for the 100 comparo, here it is - hope you dont mind Drexx!
notice the price difference!
V8-$58,760 TD-$70,700
http://www.pbase.com/drexx/land_cruiser_news

 

[calamaridog]

Scott,

You always so level headed when the rest of us are all passionate! Especially Schotts

Both motors serve a purpose and as a consumer I'd like the choice of either one. I hope diesels become more mainstream so we see more options.

This thread actually turned into a good comparisson between gas and diesel

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Scott,

You always so level headed when the rest of us are all passionate! Especially Schotts

Both motors serve a purpose and as a consumer I'd like the choice of either one. I hope diesels become more mainstream so we see more options.

This thread actually turned into a good comparisson between gas and diesel

Spell my name right Dog.

I understand all that in theory. All have said though that the V8 blows the doors off the 4.2TD without and with load. (I'm not asking about Ford and Chevy POC)

I like these results from the latest Consumer Reports Magazines:
Pulling a 5000-pound trailer from 0-60:
Xterra...18.4 sec and 17MPG
Liberty Diesel...33.2 sec and 18MPG
I'll take the Nissan just like I'll take the 100's V8 over the slug TD.
(How's that for emotion?)

 

[Walking Eagle]

I like these results from the latest Consumer Reports Magazines:
Pulling a 5000-pound trailer from 0-60:
Xterra...18.4 sec and 17MPG
Liberty Diesel...33.2 sec and 18MPG
I'll take the Nissan just like I'll take the 100's V8 over the slug TD.
(How's that for emotion?)

Well, if you're using data from such a corupt sorce as Consumer Reports, no wonder you have issues with Diesel. Remember, this is the same organization who's head is on tape threatening to fire his drivers if one of them couldn't get a Samuri to roll over on camera. I view anything they say as suspect. And comparing a gas engine in a Xterra to a Diesel in a Liberty is hardly the same as comparing a Diesel in a Land Crusier to a Gas Engine in a Land Cruiser.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Well, if you're using data from such a corupt sorce as Consumer Reports, no wonder you have issues with Diesel. Remember, this is the same organization who's head is on tape threatening to fire his drivers if one of them couldn't get a Samuri to roll over on camera. I view anything they say as suspect. And comparing a gas engine in a Xterra to a Diesel in a Liberty is hardly the same as comparing a Diesel in a Land Crusier to a Gas Engine in a Land Cruiser.

You think it's rocket science to hitch on a 5K trailer and measure times to 60MPH? And you think Consumer Reports data could be off by 15 sec between the two rigs? Really?

It doesn't take Consumer Reports to tell us the V8 slams the TD in acc and towing power. Experience of others in this forum tells us that already.

 

[FirstToy]

TD vs. V8 - Drexx took the time to scan it, I think it's worth reading.

"...TD is more economical and once on the move a more relaxed tourer, it's performance off idle is frustrating. At the right revs it works well... The V8 is much more consisten in its performance... Yet the $12000 you'd save if you skip the TD will buy alot of petrol. Off the shelf, the V8 gets the nod. The TD needs more down low for it to be a complete pkg"

"So, assuming you bougt the TD, how far would you need to drive before making up the extra cost over... the V8? More than 160,000km."

"Driving the TD is..like surfing though; ride the crest of the torque wave and you're fine- slip off and you're dumped intoa torque hole... The V8, tho quicker and more flexible from idle and in outright accel... just doesn't have the TD's flexibility on the move... It seems the V8 is a better town vehicle...giving more consistent, crisp response from low rpm ...while the TD is stronger...when cruising."

Maybe they thought the US buyer would not pay $12,000 more for a slower, peaky 100....

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

TD vs. V8 - Drexx took the time to scan it, I think it's worth reading.

"...TD is more economical and once on the move a more relaxed tourer, it's performance off idle is frustrating. At the right revs it works well... The V8 is much more consisten in its performance... Yet the $12000 you'd save if you skip the TD will buy alot of petrol. Off the shelf, the V8 gets the nod. The TD needs more down low for it to be a complete pkg"

"So, assuming you bougt the TD, how far would you need to drive before making up the extra cost over... the V8? More than 160,000km."

"Driving the TD is..like surfing though; ride the crest of the torque wave and you're fine- slip off and you're dumped intoa torque hole... The V8, tho quicker and more flexible from idle and in outright accel... just doesn't have the TD's flexibility on the move... It seems the V8 is a better town vehicle...giving more consistent, crisp response from low rpm ...while the TD is stronger...when cruising."

Maybe they thought the US buyer would not pay $12,000 more for a slower, peaky 100....

And the Liberty diesel is $6K more than the gas and only 3MPG better econ. The Thing'd be dead before you make up the savings and meanwhile you live with a slug.

 

[Ocelot]

Spell my name right Dog.

I understand all that in theory. All have said though that the V8 blows the doors off the 4.2TD without and with load. (I'm not asking about Ford and Chevy POC)

I like these results from the latest Consumer Reports Magazines:
Pulling a 5000-pound trailer from 0-60:
Xterra...18.4 sec and 17MPG
Liberty Diesel...33.2 sec and 18MPG
I'll take the Nissan just like I'll take the 100's V8 over the slug TD.
(How's that for emotion?)

Thats hardly a fair comparison, two completely different vehicles with completely different engines, gears, and wieghts (2.8L I4 vs 4.0L V6)

Why not compare the same vehicle with two different engines... like a GM 8.1L Petrol V8 Truck vs. a GM 6.6L Diesel V8 truck... the diesel blows the doors off the gasser with 1.5L less displacement and gets way better fuel economy.

If you are going to be towing there is no question you should go diesel.

To quote trucktrend:

If towing capacity and brute pulling force are your game, then a diesel is for you. The torque advantage diesels have is perfectly suited for pulling heavy loads up steep grades. Because of the relatively high compression ratio necessary to ignite the diesel fuel (~17:1 diesel vs. ~9:1 gas), diesels are less affected by heavy loads and maintain the same fuel economy as unloaded.

Diesels are much more durable and reliable than an equivalent petrol engine and have much more potencial for power when modified. One need only look on this forum to see how long 3Bs have been lasting in comparison to 2Fs.

Diesel is deffinately the only way to go.

edit: straight from the article

 

[Walking Eagle]

You think it's rocket science to hitch on a 5K trailer and measure times to 60MPH? And you think Consumer Reports data could be off by 15 sec between the two rigs? Really?
QUOTE]

No I don't think it's rocket science, and yes, given that, I do think Consumer Reports data could be off that far. All they have to do is drive one differently than the other (1/2 throttle, or hold gears longer in one). Heck, when they started trashing on the Trooper, they drove it completely different than all the other vehicles in the test. It would have taken over 2g's to go the path they tried driving it through. They made the corners more extreme yet still within the cones to get skewed results. I wouldn't put it past them to do it again.

This is getting way off the subject - so I'll stop before a moderator stops me. I'm just saying I don't trust their data on anything anymore - I've seen too many times where they've cooked the books.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

You think it's rocket science to hitch on a 5K trailer and measure times to 60MPH? And you think Consumer Reports data could be off by 15 sec between the two rigs? Really?
QUOTE]

No I don't think it's rocket science, and yes, given that, I do think Consumer Reports data could be off that far. All they have to do is drive one differently than the other (1/2 throttle, or hold gears longer in one). Heck, when they started trashing on the Trooper, they drove it completely different than all the other vehicles in the test. It would have taken over 2g's to go the path they tried driving it through. They made the corners more extreme yet still within the cones to get skewed results. I wouldn't put it past them to do it again.

This is getting way off the subject - so I'll stop before a moderator stops me. I'm just saying I don't trust their data on anything anymore - I've seen too many times where they've cooked the books.

Cons Rpts says the 100 is the best choice in it's class (large SUV) and the most reliable.

 

[DBS311]

I guess I am the only one not excited by either Toyota's diesel or 4.7. I don't care how smooth the 4.7 is, it is underpowered compared to the competition. After driving the Tundra and Titan back to back, it is a no brainer as to which engine one would prefer. Most mags agree that Toyota needs to upgrade the 4.7.

As far as the diesel goes, I have no experience with it but it seems lackluster to diesels offered here. The Toyota diesel may be smooth and quiet for a diesel, but still seems underpowered. Imagine if Toyota had a diesel similar in power to the VW's V10. 310 hp and 553 torque. Let's see the 4.7 keep up with something like that.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Imagine if Toyota had a diesel similar in power to the VW's V10. 310 hp and 553 torque. Let's see the 4.7 keep up with something like that.

That easy. The 4.7 runs every day you need it. Pick up this months 4-wheeler mag. In 10K of service the TReg has been down many times. Even reuired a new CPU. In 20K the GX never has a single issue. So, the TReg motor is great when it runs. When it dies the V8 passes it by. It's the TReg that need to keep up.

 

[expeditionswest]

It is important to understand Toyota's design and engineering standards, which puts priority on system durability and functionality over performance. Toyota has always been underpowered compared to the competition.

Every system on a vehicle has a design tolerance, torque tolerance, etc. Toyota vehicles operate at lower % of total tolerance than other makes. For example, the FZJ80 axles are the same diameter (ring gear, etc.) as the typical US 3/4 Ton full size, but put up to 40% less engine torque to those components.

That is why Toyota's last forever, so be careful what you wish for

 

[DBS311]

I know exactly what I am wishing for. It kind of pisses me off that my 3FE is so reliable because I absolutely hate the motor. Not only do I get an incredible 10 miles to the gallon, but I get to cruise at 45 up the hills. Sure, it will last forever but it will piss me off forever as well. I dream of days that my motor blows up so I can put a diesel or SBC in it.

Shotts, when I mentioned the VW V10, I was merely talking about the power output. I wasn't comparing the Toyota motors to the VW engine, just that it would be cool if Toyota built a turbo diesel with power like that for a Cruiser.

I understand Toyota's intentions for build tolerances and the importance on reliability and longevity, but there are plenty of manufacturers (such as Cummins) who make reliable engines that put out crazy power. If they can do it I have no doubt that Toyota can.

One last thing, I don't know about the 80 series front axle being "3/4 ton" sized. Maybe I am mistaken but I thought the 62 was the last Cruiser available here with 9.5" ring gears front and rear.

 

[expeditionswest]

The FZJ80 uses a reverse cut 8" ring gear in the front and a 9 7/8" ring gear in the rear. Very similar to most Fords using Dana 50's in the front and 60's in the rear, etc. (8 7/8").

What application requires that much power for you? Just curious...

Unfortunately, if you use the same logic Toyota currently does, and you install a motor with 500 ft. lbs in an FZJ80 (for example), that would be 45% more torque than stock. To apply that additional torque to the drivetrain design, it would necessitate HUGE axles, transmissions and transfer cases. That would make the vehicle even heavier, which affects off-highway performance. I think Toyota does a great job of balancing performance and durability.

For example, the cummins motors (great engine) were installed in the early Rams, and they were ripping through transmissions with every oil change. The motor torque was at the limits of the transmissions specification, which invited failure.

I have worked (in my prior career) with Toyota and GM (Delphi), Ford (Visteon) for many years on product design and manufacturing and the difference in mind set is amazing...

 

[calamaridog]

I guess I am the only one not excited by either Toyota's diesel or 4.7. I don't care how smooth the 4.7 is, it is underpowered compared to the competition. After driving the Tundra and Titan back to back, it is a no brainer as to which engine one would prefer. Most mags agree that Toyota needs to upgrade the 4.7.

As far as the diesel goes, I have no experience with it but it seems lackluster to diesels offered here. The Toyota diesel may be smooth and quiet for a diesel, but still seems underpowered. Imagine if Toyota had a diesel similar in power to the VW's V10. 310 hp and 553 torque. Let's see the 4.7 keep up with something like that.

Go drive the new VVTI 4.7 V8 and then tell me it is "underpowered". Heck, the regular 4.7 V8 moves my 1/2 ton Tundra more than adequately. Underpowered? Toyota under reports hp while the competition overreports. Toyota's tend to have less parasitic power loss than the competition. Toyotas run forever.

Besides, when was the last time you raced a 1/4 mile?

Sorry for the rant, I just sat on the side of the fwy for 2 hours waiting for a tow truck when my Department issued FORD threw a rod. BTW, the 5.4 Triton V8 had 61,497 miles on it when it spilled its guts. It was a real piece. Hard starting, loud, and temperamental. Oil changed every 5,000 mi. and all fluids checked daily.

And yes, a 5.6 V8 will usually outperform a 4.7. This is why Toyota will offer a larger V8 in the near future. But the Titan is receiving low points for reliability so far, the interior screams "cheap", and it's the ugliest truck on the market, hands down.