Exhaust(ing) leak(s) (1 Viewer)

[CruiserTrash]

@2mbb congrats on passing smog!!

 

[elripster]

Congrats at passing smog! I know the feeling. I took care of this issue forever and gained a more powerful truck in the process... Mudhorn Passed Smog with 3FE manifolds! - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/mudhorn-passed-smog-with-3fe-manifolds.1286431/

Something to consider.

Frank

 

[ToyotaMatt]

Went to a local muffler shop and had the leak welded up. Got it back installed and am now waiting in line for my biennial smog check. Wish me luck!

- i can say with a very certain degree of certainty what transpired here ......

my high school major if you can believe Maryland had such a thing was WELDING and Metallurgy


the FJ60 front pipe is stainless steel as @Spike Strip suggests ...

the 3 BOLT flange is mild steel

the correct Shield Gas Equipped MIG welder was not used or used properly , such as the heat and or penetration was not hot or turned up enough

and the BIG issue or maybe here is did the exhaust shop even know or was aware the pipe is stainless and flange is mild / carbon based steel ?


i will take a Bold leap here and say i think not , and can conclude we have a metallurgy issue with weld Penetration and not at all bonding mechanically

with the front pipe tubing at all what so ever ?


this will require the complete removal of the front pipe to correctly correct this possible mis-step


- you don't mention it ?

but i will say , it very likley they welded it up in place correct ?



the typical exhaust shop is lazy , and that always take the easy path to the DARK SIDE of what's best for there customer in my experience




that's my :

 

[2mbb]

- i can say with a very certain degree of certainty what transpired here ......

my high school major if you can believe Maryland had such a thing was WELDING and Metallurgy


the FJ60 front pipe is stainless steel as @Spike Strip suggests ...

the 3 BOLT flange is mild steel

the correct Shield Gas Equipped MIG welder was not used or used properly , such as the heat and or penetration was not hot or turned up enough

and the BIG issue or maybe here is did the exhaust shop even know or was aware the pipe is stainless and flange is mild / carbon based steel ?


i will take a Bold leap here and say i think not , and can conclude we have a metallurgy issue with weld Penetration and not at all bonding mechanically

with the front pipe tubing at all what so ever ?


this will require the complete removal of the front pipe to correctly correct this possible mis-step


- you don't mention it ?

but i will say , it very likley they welded it up in place correct ?



the typical exhaust shop is lazy , and that always take the easy path to the DARK SIDE of what's best for there customer in my experience




that's my :

View attachment 3031796​

Thanks, Matt. I did not tell the welder that the pipe is stainless. When I picked up the welded exhaust pipe, he did immediately apologize about how the welds looked. He told me the metal becomes crystalized because of the heat and is difficult to weld. The Smog tech asked if the pipe was welded installed or removed (I removed the pipe and delivered it to the muffler shop for welding). He said that the welds can crack when the pipe is installed. So anything is possible! I won't know what's up until I do some investigation. Since I passed my smog test, my motivation right now is a little low.

But I may come back to you if I do discover the weld bad. I do have a MIG welder but I haven't used it some time and I thought it would be easier to have a shop do it.

Thanks!

 

[ToyotaMatt]

Thanks, Matt. I did not tell the welder that the pipe is stainless. When I picked up the welded exhaust pipe, he did immediately apologize about how the welds looked. He told me the metal becomes crystalized because of the heat and is difficult to weld. The Smog tech asked if the pipe was welded installed or removed (I removed the pipe and delivered it to the muffler shop for welding). He said that the welds can crack when the pipe is installed. So anything is possible! I won't know what's up until I do some investigation. Since I passed my smog test, my motivation right now is a little low.

But I may come back to you if I do discover the weld bad. I do have a MIG welder but I haven't used it some time and I thought it would be easier to have a shop do it.

Thanks!

this is NOT a super bad situation to be klear , it can be corrected with minimum resource expenditure to speak plainly here


that being said , u will have to double down and spend more labor time involved the 2nd rodeo , u need to not only remove pipe but the very pin point accuracy

Technical application of all your skill sets to grind away the bad welds and then properly prep but different metallurgy surfaces to be klear here



then , select the CORRECT Alloy recipe mig-wire , and also a MUST have is the correct shielding gas

you need to practice weld too to get your ratios of heat and gas just right too , kinda like adjusting a 2F carb. idle mixture screw and fast idle screws LEAN Drop

method


what the H#LL am i saying here ?


Heck Yea !

adjusting your gas equipped mig welding to dial in the correct settings is text book same as the lean drop method 100% , your compensating back and forth to reach

manifest !


- i want to strongly suggest if you have a MIG welder to take this on your self this time ,

you have the mig already , so unless its like a xmass present you don't like , ?


ill assume you have some welding hands on experience


- we found out that taking a specialty nitch application to out source does not really work here


so , skool your self a bit on you tube and take it ON !


- i believe you can do it , and we here all in this tread who have commented thus far are rooting for your positive end goal job scope too


so think this way , because i tell myself all the time : There is zero reasons for you not to do this , and every reason for you to do it and make it your best work too !


that's enough chatty matty here ........


i hope this helps


matt

 

[2mbb]

Time flies...it's been almost two years and I'm now getting ready for my next smog test in June-ish. I still have this frustrating leak.

I removed the down pipe and checked the weld at the flange that mates to the exhaust manifold (see posts 16 & 18). It does seem to be water tight so I think the welder did infact seal it up. Using my stethoscope, it seems that the leaks is coming from between the flanges (down pipe and exhaust manifold just in one section (between two of the mounting bolts).

The down pipe has some stick out above the flange (see example pic below). I noticed that flange was not perpendicular to the axis of the pipe, so the amount of stick out was different around the circumference.

It seems if there is too much stick out, or it is uneven, the compression of the gasket will not be correct

I tried to even out the stick out with my angle grinder, but the problem still persists. does anyone know what the correct amount of stick out should be? when I tighten the flange nuts it does feel like the down pipe is bottoming out against the manifold. at one point I had about 0.040" gap between the flanges in the leaking area, and no apparent flange gap in the other areas. After I made those measurements I removed more of the stick out, but it is still leaking (I haven't checked flange gap yet.

Below is a picture of my flange on the manifold side. There is a spot where the gasket fits that is either chipped or eroded away. I tried to smooth it out with a dremel tool, but I still have a leak.

I'm looking for recommendations for the next steps:

1. remove more of the down pipe stick out
2. double up on the doughnut gasket
3. make a gasket to try and seal the flange faces (outside the OEM doughnut gasket
4. remove the manifold for further inspection and correction at a machine shop or replacement.

Thanks for your help!

 

[BlackCat]

It’s a headache leak on mine too. And it messes with my sniper.

 

[Spike Strip]

I don't know what that 'stick out' should be, and I've never seen a measurement. If you insert the downpipe into the exhaust manifold WITHOUT the gasket, does it have a gap?

If yes, easiest seems to be to clearance the 'stick out' on the downpipe rather than remove material on the manifold and risk having that surface gouged.

I personally would first make sure all surfaces are flat and just Double-up on the gaskets dry and see if that works. Gaskets are cheap. Fel-pro are $3

 

[BlackCat]

I don't know what that 'stick out' should be, and I've never seen a measurement. If you insert the downpipe into the exhaust manifold WITHOUT the gasket, does it have a gap?

If yes, easiest seems to be to clearance the 'stick out' on the downpipe rather than remove material on the manifold and risk having that surface gouged.

I personally would first make sure all surfaces are flat and just Double-up on the gaskets dry and see if that works. Gaskets are cheap. Fel-pro are $3

I tried doubling up on mine and it leaked worse. Its almost like 1.5 gaskets would be perfect but 2 is too much and 1 sometimes isn’t enough.

 

[2mbb]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I doubled up on the gaskets and the leak seemed to stop! This is encouraging for me because I was becoming convinced that my exhaust manifold must be cracked. For now I'll stop worrying about that.

I was still getting some "leak" noise, but my stethoscope didn't pick up any leaks leaks around the exhaust manifold flange. I did notice water spitting out of the compression nut that is supposed to seal the EGR pipe onto the cooler. I removed the EGR pipe (it seems that I had previously double gasketed that connection. My olive (compression sleeve) is loose fitting on my Spector stainless J-pipe. I loaded it all up with copper anti-seize hoping to gum it all up I guess. I'm using a harbor freight farmers service wrench on the 36mm nut. This is a stubby open end wrench. but it doesn't provide much leverage.

Any insight how best to get that 36mm nut and compression sleeve to tighten?

Thanks!

 

[Spike Strip]

I have a 36mm open end wrench that I cut down to fit in that space. I cut a notch in the end of a piece of 2x2 and use that and a mallet to get the thing tight, from underneath.

 

[micruz60]

Flange to edge:

Flange with gasket to edge:

 

[CruiserTrash]

I have a 36mm open end wrench that I cut down to fit in that space. I cut a notch in the end of a piece of 2x2 and use that and a mallet to get the thing tight, from underneath.

Never thought about this, but I wonder if a faucet wrench would work...

 

[Spike Strip]

I don't think there's enough room for one of those. Also, not sure if the jaws are big enough.

 

[2mbb]

So I took a route similar to Spike. My 36mm wrench is a short one and I took a tube and hammer to the end of it from underneath and got the nut a little bit tighter. So that doesn't appear to be leaking any more. But I still have a leak at the rear (#6 cylinder) of the exhaust manifold. There is too much "stuff" in the way so I'll have to remove the air cleaner and some vacuum/pcv tubing to get a better look.

My hearing isn't so good these days so I'm unable to tell where the pffft noise is coming from. But I guess I'm chipping away at the issue.

I really don't want to remove the manifold if I don't have to. And now that the EGR J-tube compression nut is on super tight, I'm not sure I can get if off again! I'll probably buy a 36mm crows foot just in case...

 

[CruiserTrash]

@2mbb I used to sell a repro of the compression ferrule on the j-tube where it enters the EGR cooler - it’s the thing behind the nut doing the sealing. With the old ferrules, they need progressively more compression every time you reuse them, which squishes the j-tube, eventually forming a permanent indentation - which makes it harder to seal next time. The new ferrules are nice in that they don’t need that nut so tight to seal. I need to get around to doing another run.

FWIW, the upper ferrule (from EGR valve to intake) is still available from Toyota. The part number will say it’s also valid for the j-pipe ferrule and I can assure you it is not. Totally different inner diameters.

 

[Spike Strip]

The J-tube leak at the rear of the manifold drove me crazy. I could hear it but not find it... It tends to blow out toward the block and if you have the insulator intact, it's almost impossible to see. The only way I found it was with smoke pumped in through the tailpipe on a cold engine.

Finally used a Remflex gasket and proper stover nuts and seems good so far.

 

[2mbb]

@2mbb I used to sell a repro of the compression ferrule on the j-tube where it enters the EGR cooler - it’s the thing behind the nut doing the sealing. With the old ferrules, they need progressively more compression every time you reuse them, which squishes the j-tube, eventually forming a permanent indentation - which makes it harder to seal next time. The new ferrules are nice in that they don’t need that nut so tight to seal. I need to get around to doing another run.

FWIW, the upper ferrule (from EGR valve to intake) is still available from Toyota. The part number will say it’s also valid for the j-pipe ferrule and I can assure you it is not. Totally different inner diameters.

Thanks. I've never been able to get the nut tight enough to seal since I installed the stainless J-tube that SOR sells. I suppose I used my original ferrule since I don't remember buying one. I have tried to locate a replacement, perhaps in a softer metal, but haven't been successful. I guess I missed that you (used to) sell them... Do you have any left? do you know someplace I can source something appropriate? Thanks.

 

[CruiserTrash]

Thanks. I've never been able to get the nut tight enough to seal since I installed the stainless J-tube that SOR sells. I suppose I used my original ferrule since I don't remember buying one. I have tried to locate a replacement, perhaps in a softer metal, but haven't been successful. I guess I missed that you (used to) sell them... Do you have any left? do you know someplace I can source something appropriate? Thanks.

I sold out long ago and have been unsuccessful finding a machinist to help out. I forgot that there’s somebody right under my nose that can do this - contacted them last night and so this might be a reality again soon. Details to follow.

 

[2mbb]

The J-tube leak at the rear of the manifold drove me crazy. I could hear it but not find it... It tends to blow out toward the block and if you have the insulator intact, it's almost impossible to see. The only way I found it was with smoke pumped in through the tailpipe on a cold engine.

Finally used a Remflex gasket and proper stover nuts and seems good so far.

I did use a remflex gasket for that EGR pipe to manifold connection. right now I don't that that is leaking, but something is closer to the connection of the #6 exhaust port (head) to manifold.