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Establishing yourself as alpha male quickly with a new to you dog??

Discussion in 'Furred - Finned - Feathered' started by T Y L E R, Jun 27, 2005.

  1. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    Ok, I've never owned a dog .. so I know very close to zip about dog behaviour and what the hell I should be doing to establish control if that is even possible. And lets cover , also, posturing (on the dogs part) but also acknowledge where to draw the line for safety sake.

    My only poor encounters with dogs were :

    1 ) Cutting across an industrial parking lot after a movie as a teen. Suddenly a junk yard dog came barrelling at me out nowhere..barking, snapping...decisive that he was going for his pound of flesh I thought. I didn't crap my drawers for some unknown reason and managed to escape his chains reach by taking two succesive lunges backwards .. each preceeded with a hard whollop to his snout! All reflexive .. based on fear and self preservation.


    2 ) I was walking with my Sister after enjoying a nice Thai meal out. As we went down the street the left to us opened up into a parking lot. It was later and the lot was empty. All except for a pit? or something damn close...the owner was pissing on the wall and he had ties the dog to a rail tie in the lot. When he saw us, he promptly ripped the rail from it's spikes and charged us .. in a holy s*** moment I turned and delivered a snap kick to his nose...he yelped and thank God was done for the nite. My Sister, upon turning around, was well and away across and up the street .. nice .. real nice :rolleyes: ;)

    3 ) I was on a call. It was a low speed MVC. One of my patients that was to refuse service .. (no injuries) was seated in his car. A dog was in the back seat on the passenger side. The window being down halfway where the dog sat looking away was all the invitation I needed to reach thru and go for a quick pat. Well that is one of the only times I can remember being bitten .. fear from the light bump in the parking lot, followed by picking up on his iwners apprehension and maybe a protective mechanism. Lesson learned.


    My medic partner likes to tease me because 'apparently' I growl and cats and dogs we see on calls. Today was no different .. had a call to a psych pt in her house .. and there were two sheppard-ish looking meanies sitting on the side porch, where we had been directed to access by our dispatch. My partner says theres no way shes going in with the dogs. I grin, jump out of the rig, and march directly up with a pissed off countenance and as I near I can't resist letting out a low growl. The backed up off the porch .. no biggie.


    Thing is this is all bullshit on my part. Part stupidity, ignorance and bravado. One day some mutt going to ante up and kick my tight white ass back to the ambulance ..

    So wise ones ... in a situation where I do not feel my safety is truly at risk, but need to project dominance over a mean looking dog that I don't want any trouble from when I go to 'handle' their owner, what can I do ??



    TY
     
  2. concretejungle

    concretejungle SILVER Star

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    T Y, honestly, you do what comes natural, STAND YOUR GROUND. Look them straight in the eye and let them know you are not scared of them. If one does jump on you, do your best to grab them straight at the neck trying to grab the wind pipe; choke em' out, then kick the s*** out of them. :)
     
  3. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    Cool .. never tried a four leg take down, and rear furred choke.



    .... Actually thats a lie



    TY



    PS: My partner was chicken to go back outside on her own, and I more or less expressed the eye stare idea to her by simply stating "exclude confidence...chickie :D "
     
  4. flintknapper

    flintknapper

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    Be cautious.

    Ty,

    Dogs do not always give "noticeable" warning signs (posturing). Even if they do, an attack can come so suddenly that you may not have time to avert it.

    Some classic signs of a dog that means business are (but not limited to):

    Baring of teeth, loud agressive barking or a protracted growl, advancing upon a percieved threat, hair standing on end, tail NOT wagging, rigid stance with eyes fixed upon threat (usually silent), pulling or pushing against any device restraining them, etc....

    It is well to recognize these warning signs...but of more value is to know where NOT to put yourself. If you encounter an animal doing some of the above....then it already feels threatened. The object is to avoid placing the animal in this position to begin with.

    Don't bother a dog that is feeding, don't startle a dog that is sleeping, don't suddenly reach out (or down) at an animal, recognize that a dog considers his yard/house/car/owner...as his property and domain...and may defend them, an unrecognized person (especially in lowlight conditions) will get the attention of most dogs, a person/persons familar to the dog who is in obvious distress may envoke a protective response from the animal, etc....

    I know your question is more about "what to do" to imtimidate a dog so that it does not interfere with the work you are trying to do. Problem is......you're going to find a dog that is "the real deal" sooner or later.

    For the most part if you stand tall (make yourself as big as possible), use a commanding voice (no fear), don't corner the animal (leave him an avenue of retreat), and look him in the eye (also a sign of agression)...you'll stand a fair chance of keeping them at bay.

    A good last resort is pepper spray if attacked.

    There are techniques for subduing large dogs that I won't mention because they won't sit well with dog lovers (me included). Those whose jobs might expose them to an attack by a "single" large dog might do well to learn how to get them off of you .

    Understanding what makes a dog "tick" will keep you out of more trouble than anything else. Unfortunately, this can vary breed to breed.

    You could always carry a CAT with you (as a diversion) I suppose.
     
  5. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    I load my female partner down with the cardiac monitor drugs and oxygen anyways .. means I can outrun her now .. :D


    Thanks for the advice!



    TY
     
  6. Curran

    Curran

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    Ty,

    Isn't the first rule for an EMT to establish site safety?

    Something to keep in mind is that while many dogs may challenge you for dominance, each dog is a different situation. What works against one may not work against another. There are some dogs that bark and make a big show, then tuck tail when you stand your ground; other dogs will go for flesh then back off after a slap on the muzzle and then there are the dogs that won't quit especially if they fear you're there to hurt their master or their property.

    Interestingly A well trained guard dog "should" actually let you onto the property before he approaches you. This is trained into the dog so a bad guy can’t poke, jab or spray him with anything from the safe side of the fence.

    Once while I was on a business trip my dog cornered a painter into a bathroom and wouldn't let him out. The guy didn't even know that the dog was there until he reached the top of the steps. Luckily the contractor (who knew the dog and wasn't supposed to let anyone around the dog without supervision) stopped by and let the fellow out. Later the painter told me that the more aggressive he tried to be toward the dog the meaner the dog became in return. The dog even pulled a broom handle out of the fellow's hands as he tied to shoo the dog away.

    I know that you're a big tough bloke. But keep in mind that a big dog such as a GSD, or Rotty has enough bite pressure to snap a man's forearm so be careful.
    I've used the dominance stare down trick before with some success but it I think of it as more of a last option.

    :beer:
     
  7. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    Yup site safety ....


    And it's odd that I didn't ask what I could do to 'befriend' a dog ... wonder why that was?


    In any case it is all about safety. I carry a knife, but whippie right? I'd rather take a more mature approach (getting a tad wiser with age), and become a study of thier behaviour and begin practising as I meet up with different breeds on the job. Starting from the beginning - safety .. and not teenage bravado :rolleyes:


    Predator/prey relationships fascinate me for some reason .. whether in our species or another. Pecking order is a cool thing..




    TY
     
  8. miked

    miked

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    most of the people i've talked with who have had to employ techniques for subduing a dog, the techniques flintknapper won't mention(thankyou for not provoking), have been LEO. nearly all of them have expressed regret for having to do what they had to do. one guy actually called for AND PAID FOR OUT OF POCKET a a trip to a Vet to try and save the dogs life!.
    being a dog owner, i understand where the dog is coming from.
    understanding where the dog is coming from also means i know when a dog might/might NOT back down. the line can be crossed in less time than it takes to present a solution. doesn't matter if that solution is drawn from a holster or an OC pocket.

    awe man, i can see the trouble with your situation and i 'laud you for seeking a reasonable solution. if i had to enter random properties/personal spaces on a dialy basis to do the right thing, i doubt i could cope with the repercussions.

    but you do.

    and for that, i say... ThanYou.


    and for what it's worth, a GlounkNose Punch(if it works) is better than a trigger pull anyday.
     
  9. 72FJ40LandCruiser

    72FJ40LandCruiser

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    I used to read water meters and came across many, many dogs in that rural area. When I first started, many of the dogs barked at me like crazy. I would get within a few feet of them, then kneel down a bit and extend my arm. If they came in closer to me, I'd pet them, if they didn't come any closer or growled, I'd wait till next time. I'd sometimes take some dog biscuits or cheap packages of hot dogs when I went around. I quickly made friends with almost all the dogs. There was one residence who adopted dogs, some of which you could tell had been abused before. They didn't want to have anything to do with me at first, but then after a while they would run, jump, and lick all over me. That job sucked, but payed good and I liked all the dogs... I only did it once a month for one rural water district but it just took about 3.5 hours and I got paid $160 after taxes. Sucked in the snow though...
     
  10. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    I loves ma job .. no need to thank me! :beer:


    It's usually a privilage as I see it, to enter a patients home. I will usually comment on the lovely living room .. or a piece of art .. "You probably won't be needing that after this trip; mind if I take it with me ??" *batting lashes*


    Hey, whats a glounknose punch?


    Personally I see my options in that ugly moment as a smash on top the nose .. crush larynx .. grab both fore legs and *RIP* the dog in half .. :eek:


    Oh .. forgot to mention. The only really protective (extremely/ dog I've encountered was on a call to a really sick elderly woman at home in her bedroom. She have a punt dog that would NOT let anyone touch her!!! It jumped onto her chest and that was that .. spinning around to snap anyone who tried. And of course I had a management team member riding along evaluating my critical thinking ..


    ... Simple .. I quickly whipped the corner of her comforter together and trapped the pooch inside. The I ran with it to a spare bedroom and tossed it in .. slamming the dorr behind. And then we all broke out laughing ..


    OH s*** .. the patient .. !! :doh:


    Knew I was there for a reason ... hehe



    TY
     
  11. archie

    archie

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    Same thing I was going to say. I loved my dog so I am going to say something that might seem cruel to dog lovers.
    I used to work in vivisections operating and killing dogs for research and I never had a problem working on dogs as long as you don't fear them.
    Always look at a dog as if you were going to eat it for lunch and it will run away from you like a dog catcher. I think that they can smell if you are hungry and I know for a fact from people who ate dog that they can smell if you ate one and fear you even more.
    A dog will probably bite you if you get it cornered in it's own turf and chances are it will not even bark before it bites you(snarling would be more likely).
    Dogs bark because they want attention. That is why people cut off their tails so it doesn't show their playfulness when they are barking to make them look "tougher".
    If a dog wanted to attack you it wouldn't bark first. Even a cat knows there is an advantage in the "element of surprise" , that's why it attacks quietly.
    The only way a dog can kill you is by biting you or giving you rabies. You outweight him and you have stategies. You can grab him by the balls or poke/gouge him in the eyes. Never pull away from a dog that's got a bite on you, just twist your arm or leg in order to break his/her neck and it will let go or choke by the larnyx so it can't breath.The more you pull, the harder the dog bites. If it got you by the hand, grab it's neck(headlock) and shove you hand down it's lungs. It's hard to bite anything if you can't breathe.

    these are some of the things I learned when living and playing with my dog so hopefully I am not wrong on any off these points because I only had one. It's so hard to have a faithful companion for 15 years and have to see them pass away, so I don't think I'll have any more. Lot's of luck with yours!
     
  12. Fly Rod

    Fly Rod

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    As a dog lover and owner I would hate to injure a dog. My commanding voice and knowledgable posture has kept me out of trouble so far. As a cyclist I try to out run them but on a hill climb it is not always possible. First I yell at them. Second I will kick them with my cleat. Third I will dismount and use the bike as a weapon (chain rings can be painful).

    That said A freind was attacked on one of my favorite climbs. He is a vet and knows the ropes but this dog charged full on and got his leg to the tune of 15 stitches. He jumped off swung the bike at the dog and did a cycle cross mount down hill. The PS vagrents that were camping illegally were gone before the cops could get up there. I am seriously considering a lightweight pistol for these back woods climbs. If it is me or the dog, sorry the dog looses.

    Fly Rod
     
  13. dieseldog

    dieseldog She idles just fine . . .

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    One factor I've always been taught is that the alpha animal keeps his head higher/above the others. Some dogs react to being stared at by becoming more aggressive. If attacked and the fight is on, it's preferable to allow the dog to take your arm, then if you must, take your other arm, sweep in behind the animal's neck and then you are in a good position to break it's neck. There's no way to avoid getting bit, it's a question of being bit where it does you the least harm. The dog's instinct is often to knock you down, take the advantage and then attack the neck/face, etc. The goal is to prevent this from occurring if at all possible. On the job, it is not my first instinct to shoot an animal; however, depending on the nature of the call, that may very well end up being the result--especially if the animal is acting the least bit strange (rabies being the prime consideration) or has a known history of having made attacks.

    I'm a dog owner and lover and I don't take these things lightly; however, the dog must live in our world and not necessarily vice versa.
     
  14. Shahram

    Shahram I ain't got herpes no more.

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    When you perceive a dog is acting aggressively, do not run away. I suggest you use the highly controversial "Pookie Wookie! Who's Daddy's Wittle Snuggle Monkey?" Technique. Snatch the dog up, no matter how heavy the dog is, immediately start kissing it on the snout/lips. Between kisses, say "Pookie Wookie! Who's Daddy's Wittle Snuggle Monkey?" in the most ridiculous baby-talk voice you can muster. The dog may attempt to bite your face, head and throat. Do not back down. More baby-talk. More kisses. Your resolve must be strong. You must remind him that he is Daddy's Wittle Snuggle Monkey, and not the other way around. Eventually, the dog will either eat your face or become your Snuggle Monkey. In 15% of clinical trials, this technique has been proven to work 50% of the time. That's what I call results.
     
  15. bigbrowndog

    bigbrowndog

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    Having used dogs for pig hunting , some dogs when they are fired up with the chase and capture do not want to let go of the other animal or sometimes the other dog in a fight. Most common method to effect a release is to grab their ball bag then squeeze and twist.This is not meant to be stupid in a post but I have seen hunting dogs kicked and punched and they would not release, I find that is simply sickening. Also have seen aerogard sprayed in the nose to make one dog release.Might sound cruel but if you have one hanging off your leg or arm one day it may be worth remembering.
     
  16. Gold Finger

    Gold Finger

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    TYLER,

    Some ancient warriors wore under garments made entirely of silk which has many wonderful properties, insulation is one and some motorcyclists were it under there leathers, but it is also incredibly strong and if armour was penetrated by an arrow it would stay integral and not sheer the material in essence the silk was undamaged. The arrow together with a protective envelope of silk would penetrate the body and shards would normally stay inside the silk, the biggest benefit is protection against infection by containing the foreign body. One of the biggest worries about dog attacks is the potential for infection even from quite small bites.


    Sometimes as has been said confronting an animal head on can stop its charge and this certainly is so with cattle and horses and also with some less dominant dogs, however humans are often perceived as dominant because of there upright stance so a dominant aggressive animal sees this as a challenge or a threat and becomes stressed so tends to attach. My wolf hound were occasional attacked by very small dogs that had absolutely no chance of success, in fact the usually just shook them off like shedding water and the terrier which is the usual dog type to mount these sort of attacks would fly through the air. I think that they viewed very large dogs as a threat and wanted to get there retaliation in first, so to speak
    To get close to shy horses it is useful to turn side ways on and not give direct eye contact and approach the horse slowly sideways or usually the horse will be de-stressed and come right up. I am not going to say what to do in close confines of a patient’s home were time might be critical but it may be useful to understand the psychology of dogs in general and there are books and undoubtedly electronic scribblings on the internet looking just at that. :)