Electrical help: Running a new 220 line? (1 Viewer)

[vtcruiser60]

Hi..

I am looking for help running a 220 outlet in the garage. I currently have a 230 v line running my welder. The line runs to a breaker box with a 60 amp switch.

I recently picked up a used compressor, with a label stating a need for 220V.

I am wondering if I can pick up the electricity in the outlet currently feeding the welder, and run some new 10x2 wire to a new outlet for the compressor. Should I splice into my welder line with a junction box, or can I join the wire in the box currently housing the welder outlet.

Yes...the outlet for the welder and the compressor differ.

 

[splitshot]

I'd run a seperate line for your compressor with its own breaker. Check the amp rating on the motor to size accordingly.

 

[vtcruiser60]

Even if they will not be run simultaneously? If it is a code reason, then I will certainly run a separate line.

 

[vtcruiser60]

Also...the compressor currently has an dryer plug spliced to its line. I bought it used, so it is not my handy work.

 

[splitshot]

First, #10 wire is rated for only 30 amps, which sould be plenty for the compressor. The welder on the other hand may require a larger service. If you never run it full bore it will probably handle it, but if you want to weld something heavy, you could be asking for trouble.

What is the amp rating for the welder?

 

[vtcruiser60]

Here is more information with some correction:

The welder is a Hobart 187, with an amp range of 25-185. Amp Input at rated load 230 V, 50/60 Hz, single phase. Minimum Grounding wire in AWG was 14...so i should be very fine with 10.

The compressor runs a Gould electrical motor at 230 (not 220), 60 Hz, 1 phase....12 Amps.

 

[splitshot]

Ok, the 25-185 is the output rating, but there should be a spec on the input amps. Sounds like you may be ok there.

The 230 is rated voltage (some say 240) so no problem there.

The problem I see is you've got a 60 amp breaker on 30 amp wire, I'd swap that out.

Othwise, it sounds ok, I like to run seperate circuts for the bigger stuff, but thats just me.

 

[fj40charles]

Install a subpanel with the 60 amp feed. Run two 230v circuits, and a couple of 120v circuits from the subpanel.

If you don't want to mess with it, switch out the plug on the compressor so you can use the same receptable as the welder.

How many times are you going to be using the welder and air compressor at the same time? Are you planning on using arc gouging rod?

60 amp is too much breaker for a little welder like the HH187.

10 gauge wire is fine for 30 amp breaker at 230v.

Last point... If you're going to use a metal box for the receptacle, you need to make sure it is grounded.
Buy some green grounding screws at homo depot.

More edit... I saw the pic above, you have the wrong type of metal box for your receptacle. You need to buy a 4" square box. Get the deep model.

 

[vtcruiser60]

Thanks for the help.....I think I have a plan. But let me clarify some details, cause I wrote too quickly.

The input amps on the welder are 20.5, according to the manual. The circuits at the breaker box are two, side by side 30 amp breakers. I think this means they are 30 amps, not 60.

The welder plug is a NEMA 6-50P into a NEMA 6-50R receptacle. Since the compressor wire and plug are a bit cobbed together, why don't I just replace the compressor wire adn plug with another NEMA 6-50 plug. Then I could use the current outlet for the welder for the compressor, as needed. Does this seem ok?

Last, if I want to run a new wire and receptacle across the garage, what is the best way to tie into that current 230 v line? Can I create a union inside the current receptacle for the welder, the one in the photo, or should I use a junction box outside of that receptacle?

 

[fj40charles]

Thanks for the help.....I think I have a plan. But let me clarify some details, cause I wrote too quickly.

The input amps on the welder are 20.5, according to the manual. The circuits at the breaker box are two, side by side 30 amp breakers. I think this means they are 30 amps, not 60.

The welder plug is a NEMA 6-50P into a NEMA 6-50R receptacle. Since the compressor wire and plug are a bit cobbed together, why don't I just replace the compressor wire adn plug with another NEMA 6-50 plug. Then I could use the current outlet for the welder for the compressor, as needed. Does this seem ok?

Last, if I want to run a new wire and receptacle across the garage, what is the best way to tie into that current 230 v line? Can I create a union inside the current receptacle for the welder, the one in the photo, or should I use a junction box outside of that receptacle?

Please double check the part # and make sure it is a 30 amp breaker instead of 60 amps.

I would swap out the pigtail on the compressor and install a 6-50P so you can use the same receptacle as the welder. This is what I did for while until I built my shop. I had a single 30 amp circuit going into the garage that I used for my welder and compressor (not at the same time).

How many wires do you have going to your 6-50R? You would need a 4 conductor wire (2 hots, 1 ground, and 1 neutral) if you wanted to split one of the 120v legs for a 120v receptacle. Don't know if this is code or not. Personally, I would install a subpanel in the garage. If you garage is not detached, then it is very easy.

 

[splitshot]

Please double check the part # and make sure it is a 30 amp breaker instead of 60 amps.

I would swap out the pigtail on the compressor and install a 6-50P so you can use the same receptacle as the welder. This is what I did for while until I built my shop. I had a single 30 amp circuit going into the garage that I used for my welder and compressor (not at the same time).

How many wires do you have going to your 6-50R? You would need a 4 conductor wire (2 hots, 1 ground, and 1 neutral) if you wanted to split one of the 120v legs for a 120v receptacle. Don't know if this is code or not. Personally, I would install a subpanel in the garage. If you garage is not detached, then it is very easy.

X2, a subpanel is the way to go, especially if you want to add on later.

 

[fj40charles]

Here is write up on installing a subpanel. Note this is NOT for a detached building/structure.
Installing a subpanel with a detached building/structure requires a grounding rod to be installed.

Note: I noticed there is no mention of not bonding ground and neutral in a subpanel. Ground and neutral MUST NOT be bonded in a subpanel. It can be bonded in one location only (main panel).

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/overview.htm

 

[vtcruiser60]

The subpanel idea is a good one and perhaps this is the best and safest way to go. I think though in the interim, I'll just swap out the plugs on the compressor...create a new pigtail.

You all have me worried about the breaker now for my welder. I snapped a pic (crummy) of the panel. The cutler hammer switch has two side by side breakers (attached). Each of those fuzzy numbers reads 30. I did this a while back. I still think it means the breaker is a 30 amp rated. The welder calls for a 30 amp normal operating fuse.

 

[splitshot]

That is a 2-pole 30amp breaker.

 

[trainrech]

Installing a subpanel with a detached building/structure requires a grounding rod to be installed.

In the event you don't pull a dedicated ground from the service panel, correct?

 

[-Spike-]

In the event you don't pull a dedicated ground from the service panel, correct?

Not correct- you have to run both a neutral from the original panel and a ground at the detached building. Running the ground from the original panel is not acceptable, nor particularly frugal if the buildings are separated by any distance.

-Spike

 

[Cattledog]

I have not noticed anyone asking about distance from the panel to outlet.

I installed a 220V single phase 50 amp outlet in my garage last winter for a stick welder. I ran the line about 60 feet in total to the garage. I ended up using 6 gauge wire. You might want to look at this link.

http://www.djsociety.org/Wire.htm

I would run a sub panel and split the line. I would not under rate the terminal in relation to the wire either. I am NOT an electrician, anyone here a sparky?

thanks fj40charles

 

[fj40charles]

I installed a 220V 2 phase 50 amp outlet in my garage last winter for a stick welder. I ran the line about 60 feet in total to the garage. I ended up using 6 gauge wire. You might want to look at this link.

I think you meant single phase 220v.

 

[vtcruiser60]

Here is what I ended up doing, after your consultation here, and a chat with a couple of buddies.

I ran a line to a new receptacle using 10/2 wire. The new receptacle is a 6-50R, the same as used by my welder. I fashioned a new pigtail for the compressor, with a 6-50P plug...so I could move it around if necessary. I got my juice from the original welder receptacle. The box was a little tight to create a pigtail in the box, so I just put two wires into each hole of the receptacle. I torqued my screws down well and wrapped the wires/receptacle with UL tape.

Distance from the farthest receptacle to the subpanel is about 70 ft. The Hobart manual recommends 14 AWG at a maximum of 67 FT. I figure I will be fine at this distance. STill, i plan to putting the volt meter/tester onto it this afternoon.

I don't plan on running both tools, the welder and compressor, simultaneously.

Seem ok?

 

[-Spike-]

Sounds fine, except the part about not planning on running them simultaneously. Compressors tend to be left on, so if they can both be plugged in at the same time, they will probably be run at the same time, intentionally or not. I tend to run dedicated circuits for large-draw items. Reading back, it seems you have a 20.5 amp welder and a 12 amp compressor, so if they both ran at full draw at the same time you'd blow your 30 amp breaker. In practice it would actually probably blow sooner than that- I usually leave at least 5 amps of headroom in my calculations to save future annoyance. I think I understand that the original wire and the new wire are both 10 guage? If so, sounds like you're OK. You wouldn't want a smaller wire feeding a larger wire down the line, and all wires should be able to handle the maximum amps the circuit breaker can deliver.

You may kick yourself later for not running separate circuits, but it sounds like you haven't done anything unsafe.

-Spike