E15 gas dangerous? (1 Viewer)

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The 80 is older, what say you to the E15 issue?

New E15 Gasoline May Damage Vehicles and Cause Consumer Confusion

AAA research reveals need for regulators and industry to suspend E15 sales to protect motorists


ORLANDO, Fla., Nov. 30, 2012 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- A recent survey by AAA finds a strong likelihood of consumer confusion and the potential for voided warranties and vehicle damage as a result of the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) recent approval of E15 gasoline. An overwhelming 95 percent of consumers surveyed have not heard of E15, a newly approved gasoline blend that contains up to 15 percent ethanol. With little consumer knowledge about E15 and less than five percent of cars on the road approved by automakers to use the fuel, AAA is urging regulators and the industry to stop the sale of E15 until motorists are better protected.

Only about 12 million out of the more than 240 million light-duty vehicles on the roads today are approved by manufacturers to use E15 gasoline, based on a survey conducted by AAA of auto manufacturers. AAA automotive engineering experts also have reviewed the available research and believe that sustained use of E15 in both newer and older vehicles could result in significant problems such as accelerated engine wear and failure, fuel-system damage and false "check engine" lights for any vehicle not approved by its manufacturer to use E15.

"It is clear that millions of Americans are unfamiliar with E15, which means there is a strong possibility that many motorists may improperly fill up using this gasoline and damage their vehicle," said AAA President & CEO Robert Darbelnet. "Bringing E15 to the market without adequate safeguards does not responsibly meet the needs of consumers."

Unsuspecting consumers using E15 could end up with engine problems that might not be covered by their vehicles' warranties. Five manufacturers (BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and Volkswagen) are on record saying their warranties will not cover fuel-related claims caused by the use of E15. Eight additional automakers (GM, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo) have stated that the use of E15 does not comply with the fuel requirements specified in their owner's manuals and may void warranty coverage.

The only vehicles currently approved by automakers to use E15 are flex-fuel models, 2001 model-year and newer Porsches, 2012 model-year and newer GM vehicles and 2013 model-year Ford vehicles. These approvals extend only to cars, light-duty trucks and medium-duty passenger vehicles (SUVs). The use of E15 is expressly prohibited in heavy-duty vehicles, boats, motorcycles, power equipment, lawn mowers and off-road vehicles.

"The sale and use of E15 should be suspended until additional gas pump labeling and consumer education efforts are implemented to mitigate problems for motorists and their vehicles," continued Darbelnet. "Consumers should carefully read pump labels and know their auto manufacturer's recommendations to help prevent any problems from E15."

AAA urges fuel producers and regulators to do a better job of educating consumers about potential dangers before selling E15 gasoline. This outreach should include a consumer education campaign and more effective pump labels, among other potential safeguards to protect consumers and their vehicles. AAA also recommends additional testing to conclusively determine the impact of E15 use on vehicle engines and fuel system components. At least ten gas stations currently sell E15 and that number is expected to grow, which means now is the time to suspend sales before more retailers begin offering the fuel.

The EPA in June officially approved the sale of E15 after receiving a waiver request from producers interested in expanding the use of corn-based ethanol. Despite objections by auto manufacturers, the EPA approved the use of E15 gasoline in flex-fuel vehicles and 2001 model year and newer cars, light-duty trucks and medium-duty passenger vehicles and SUVs. AAA urges consumers to follow the recommendations of manufacturers to truly protect themselves from voided warranties or potential damage.

AAA supports the development and use of alternative fuels. More than 95 percent of the gasoline sold in the United States contains up to 10 percent ethanol. Lower ethanol blends should remain available to consumers while the challenges with E15 are addressed.

The survey findings related to consumer knowledge of E15 are from a telephone survey conducted among a national probability sample of 1,012 adults comprising 504 men and 508 women 18 years of age and older, living in private households in the continental United States.

As North America's largest motoring and leisure travel organization, AAA provides more than 53 million members with travel, insurance, financial and automotive-related services. Since its founding in 1902, the not-for-profit, fully tax-paying AAA has been a leader and advocate for the safety and security of all travelers. AAA clubs can be visited on the Internet at AAA.com.
 
All but a select few stations have a sticker that reads "Contains up to 15% ethanol" on the pumps. Been like that over a year at least. Is that E15 then?
 
Its not clear from the article, but if E15 is sold as a separate product, and the station still sells pure gas or the common stuff you find now (what is it E5, E10?) then I would lean toward whatever has the lowest ethanol. Gasoline has more energy that ethanol (114k btu per gallon, vs 76k btu per gallon. Diesel and Kerosene have close to 130k btu per gallon.) and can damage some plastic parts.

Geof
 
I try to fill up our marine stuff at the very few non ethanol stations fe have. Hard to find around here, "mom and pop" type stores.
 
All but a select few stations have a sticker that reads "Contains up to 15% ethanol" on the pumps. Been like that over a year at least. Is that E15 then?

Yes.

Ethanol has 4 problems.

1: It increases the effective octane but lowers the energy density. That means that they can use a base fuel with a slightly lower octane rating and boost it back up to regular ratings with the ethanol. The net result is lower MPG.

2: Ethanol is hygroscopic. That means it sucks moisture out of the atmosphere. This can lead to rust in non-stainless fuel systems.

3: Ethanol attacks natural rubber. If your fuel system has any natural rubber parts in it, ethanol will shorten their lifespan. Sometimes drastically. A friend of mine with an olds 455 in his '71 vista cruiser got about 12,000 miles out of a freshly rebuilt rochester 4-barrel carburetor because he was running E85 in it. All the rubber parts wore out.

4: Converting food to fuel so we can burn it is a stupid idea, and ethanol is a poor excuse for an alternative fuel if you don't happen to live in a jungle. The economics work fine in Brazil, but we are not in Brazil.
 
Yes.

Ethanol has 4 problems.

1: It increases the effective octane but lowers the energy density. That means that they can use a base fuel with a slightly lower octane rating and boost it back up to regular ratings with the ethanol. The net result is lower MPG.

2: Ethanol is hygroscopic. That means it sucks moisture out of the atmosphere. This can lead to rust in non-stainless fuel systems.

3: Ethanol attacks natural rubber. If your fuel system has any natural rubber parts in it, ethanol will shorten their lifespan. Sometimes drastically. A friend of mine with an olds 455 in his '71 vista cruiser got about 12,000 miles out of a freshly rebuilt rochester 4-barrel carburetor because he was running E85 in it. All the rubber parts wore out.

4: Converting food to fuel so we can burn it is a stupid idea, and ethanol is a poor excuse for an alternative fuel if you don't happen to live in a jungle. The economics work fine in Brazil, but we are not in Brazil.

Amen! My wife's Outback got 28mpg on non ethanol gas and 24mpg on the 10% piss water crap on opposite directions of the same trip. I couldn't believe the difference. Unfortunately this one station with the non ethanol is a couple hours away.
 
Interesting conversation. We are headed out on a 4000 mile trip in the Subaru and as an experiment am going to fill up with full gasoline at the only local station that sells it. Then, there is a website that lets you find other stations along the trip and I will end up in Kalifornia where I'll assuredly get the crap metro/urban/winter mix and be able to compare economy numbers for long steady state driving. Will update.

DougM
 
My 2010 GMC Sierra owners manual states with reg. gasoline you will get about 400 miles to the tank, and with E85 only about 300 miles. I will never get that fuel....
 
Hell yes it sucks moisture and eats rubber! E85=marine engine's worst enemy has been my experience.

If the gas is going to sit for any period of time your tank better be full and have a heavy dose of Stabil in it.
 
Yes.

Ethanol has 4 problems.

1: It increases the effective octane but lowers the energy density. That means that they can use a base fuel with a slightly lower octane rating and boost it back up to regular ratings with the ethanol. The net result is lower MPG.

2: Ethanol is hygroscopic. That means it sucks moisture out of the atmosphere. This can lead to rust in non-stainless fuel systems.

3: Ethanol attacks natural rubber. If your fuel system has any natural rubber parts in it, ethanol will shorten their lifespan. Sometimes drastically. A friend of mine with an olds 455 in his '71 vista cruiser got about 12,000 miles out of a freshly rebuilt rochester 4-barrel carburetor because he was running E85 in it. All the rubber parts wore out.

4: Converting food to fuel so we can burn it is a stupid idea, and ethanol is a poor excuse for an alternative fuel if you don't happen to live in a jungle. The economics work fine in Brazil, but we are not in Brazil.


The success of branding ethanol as a means to end oil dependency is another example of how uneducated - and inquisitive - the masses have become.

If not at the same gas station, I always fill up my MY2000 E39 BMW M5 at Chevron with their Supreme grade (91 octane). Then Chevron slapped a "may contain up to 10% ethanol" into their Regular 87, Regular Plus 89 and Supreme 91 octanes. In no time flat my fuel pump died, gummed up by the 10% or less ethanol in the Supreme 91. After spending $1,800 to replace the pump :mad: and clean the lines I've switched to their Super Supreme 94 octane. Knock on wood, my car runs fine and I'm keeping all the reciepts in case I ever sell my car.

On a side note, Husky gas stations in Canada sold gas with ethanol in it before it was popular. Used to fill up my '91 Honda CRX there way (way) back in the late 90's because their Regular 87 octane until I noticed how rough I was running. Switched to Chevron's 87 octane (pre-ethanol) and the little 4-banger ran like a higher priced sports car :cool:. Never went back and rued the day ethanol would be popular.
 
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My 2010 GMC Sierra owners manual states with reg. gasoline you will get about 400 miles to the tank, and with E85 only about 300 miles. I will never get that fuel....

I have considered epoxy coating the gas tank in my old '77 fiat spider, having stainless lines run, and rebuilding the carburetors with all-synthetic bits so i can run it on E85.

Why? I'm not sure that it will pass emissions with a pair of 34IDF carbs. Which essentially means that each cylinder has it's own carburetor - and each of those carburetors has a larger venturi than the primary venturi in the original 32ADFA.

But that vehicle hasn't moved under it's own power in many years. I just can't bring myself to get rid of it.
 
I have considered epoxy coating the gas tank in my old '77 fiat spider, having stainless lines run, and rebuilding the carburetors with all-synthetic bits so i can run it on E85.

Why? I'm not sure that it will pass emissions with a pair of 34IDF carbs. Which essentially means that each cylinder has it's own carburetor - and each of those carburetors has a larger venturi than the primary venturi in the original 32ADFA.

But that vehicle hasn't moved under it's own power in many years. I just can't bring myself to get rid of it.


I've seen many well tuned carbs running cleaner than some fuel injected vehicles....I personally wouldn't put my money on E85 solving your problems.

It's a bummer you still have to get that car smogged.
 
Yes.

Ethanol has 4 problems.
<snip>

Make that at least 5.

Evaporatve emissions systems in vehicles such as our beloved 80 Series Land Cruisers were designed to deal with REAL gasoline. The crap we get today, especially in the summer, simply overwhelms the system. Over-pressurization, overwhelmed vapor canisters, boiling fuel, damaged fuel tanks (from excessive pressures) and generally s***ty gas mileage.
 
If you think ethanol eats rubber, try running bio-diesel in your diesel! Your gas mileage will go down because half of the fuel will be poured onto the road under your truck.
 
Interesting conversation. We are headed out on a 4000 mile trip in the Subaru and as an experiment am going to fill up with full gasoline at the only local station that sells it. Then, there is a website that lets you find other stations along the trip and I will end up in Kalifornia where I'll assuredly get the crap metro/urban/winter mix and be able to compare economy numbers for long steady state driving. Will update.

DougM

Just curious, what is the web site you're referring to?
 
Make that at least 5.

Evaporatve emissions systems in vehicles such as our beloved 80 Series Land Cruisers were designed to deal with REAL gasoline. The crap we get today, especially in the summer, simply overwhelms the system. Over-pressurization, overwhelmed vapor canisters, boiling fuel, damaged fuel tanks (from excessive pressures) and generally s***ty gas mileage.

So, you're saying that current gasoline mixtures in the USA have a higher ratio of highly volatile components?
 
E85 and E15 are two different ethanol blends.

E85 contains 85 percent alcohol/15 percent gasoline (+ additives) while E15 is 15 percent alcohol/85 percent gasoline (+additives)

Running E85 in anything other than a FlexFuel vehicle or one with a fuel system designed/modified for 85% ethanol is asking for trouble.

E10 is what most stations are pumping these days, but like the article from the OP, E15 is coming.

E10 has done some damage to plastic and rubber parts of my walk-behind tiller, lawnmowers and chainsaws. My new Stihl weed whacker seems to be handling E10 ok for now. E10 sitting in a metal fuel line of my S15 for about 2 years led to a pinhole leak at the lowest bend in the line and a postmortem indicated a corrosion spot where water from the hygroscopic ethanol had pooled. My bad for leaving fuel in the lines, but this may not have happened without the ethanol. My mechanic friend who rebuilds a dozen or so carbs a year has found all kinds of interesting dissolved, deformed and otherwise damaged parts in them that he never saw before the advent of ethanol blended gasolines.
 
At least it's not MTBE. That stuff is literally toxic waste. And a bit corrosive.
 
Two points to think about:

1. The EPA administrator (Lisa Jackson) approves E-15 for vehicles newer than 2001.
2. All vehicle manufacturers (except Porsche) are stating that fuel related problems associated with using E-15 in non-flex fuel vehicles will void your warranty (INCLUDING TOYOTA).

Hmm...who should we trust? The manufacturer who designed and built your vehicle with a voidable warranty or a government agency headed up by Lisa Jackson being $persuaded$ by an Ethanol Lobbyist group (Growth Energy)?

One last thought "EPA Sets 4-gallon minimum for motorists buying gas at E-15 pumps" see here: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/epa-sets-4-gallon-minimum-motorists-buying-gas-ethanol-15-pumps
 

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