Diesel falling back to the tank ..? (1 Viewer)

[itchy355]

Hi all!

After several less-problematic months following my shaved drive flange, there's a new problem.

Or it might be interconnected with my long-time trouble. In short; the poor thing just stopped to be able to climb almost any hills. I mean on the road - no crazy stuff. If I go up a hill for say 100 yards or more (up to that point) there's no trouble BUT then it starts slowing down. Gas does not help, the AT gets to 1st soon and then you can feel it just won't go anywhere else, so immediately stop, put to neutral to get the tranny out of the equation, keep her on a steady gas for 30 or so seconds.. then it starts to feel okay again, I give it a bit of floor, nothing seems wrong, off we go. Another 50 yards, repeat. Yes, some hills take a while to get up to

So. Started in the tank, removed the pickup screen from the line, cleaned it (not much crap around), hoped for the best - no avail. It appears even worse, although can't be sure.

Took out the fuel filter, dumped the diesel in it - just several hard black pieces, .5mm in size, nothing catastrophic. Ordered a new filter, waiting for it now..

No clue. Called my 80 parts guy, he noted it might be something with the pump (ouch, please please NO!). I can't do anything about that of course, I'm just a normal wrench guy. My local mechanic (aside from telling me he's busy for next two months..) noted it might be diesel falling back into the tank because of air leak somewhere. That lighted a bulb: whenever I keep her standing in an incline for some time, I can't start without pumping fuel manually first. When the manual pump starts to go hard, it's OK to start. It ,,seems'' that there's some fuel dripping from the fuel filter at that point. But I didn't find any wrong gaskets or so..

Can this be the reason? It just got much worse recently - don't know why, we drive her pretty much the same, the only thing that changed is cold, this started happening when the temperatures hit freezing (32F or so). Is there anything I can do with my limited tool access (pretty much just wrenches)?

Thanks for any clues..

 

[hj 60]

I don't know about 80 series but with a 60 uphill engine stall most of the time is a fuel line (hard-line but also soft-line) leak and air is entering, so no real visible leak, nothing to see but still an air leak.
But you can not be the first to have this so a search must help , what type of engine and year is it?

Fuel Leak - HDJ80

Ok just completed the power steering pump overhaul - which went fairly well - (still need to take it for a full run but initial signs looked good... Until when running the new fluid into the pump I noticed a leak from the side of the fuel injector pump... :o The leak is coming from...

www.landcruiserclub.net

pump, expensive, sorry

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offroad80s.com

 

[D0g]

Hi all!

After several less-problematic months following my shaved drive flange, there's a new problem.

Or it might be interconnected with my long-time trouble. In short; the poor thing just stopped to be able to climb almost any hills. I mean on the road - no crazy stuff. If I go up a hill for say 100 yards or more (up to that point) there's no trouble BUT then it starts slowing down. Gas does not help, the AT gets to 1st soon and then you can feel it just won't go anywhere else, so immediately stop, put to neutral to get the tranny out of the equation, keep her on a steady gas for 30 or so seconds.. then it starts to feel okay again, I give it a bit of floor, nothing seems wrong, off we go. Another 50 yards, repeat. Yes, some hills take a while to get up to

So. Started in the tank, removed the pickup screen from the line, cleaned it (not much crap around), hoped for the best - no avail. It appears even worse, although can't be sure.

Took out the fuel filter, dumped the diesel in it - just several hard black pieces, .5mm in size, nothing catastrophic. Ordered a new filter, waiting for it now..

No clue. Called my 80 parts guy, he noted it might be something with the pump (ouch, please please NO!). I can't do anything about that of course, I'm just a normal wrench guy. My local mechanic (aside from telling me he's busy for next two months..) noted it might be diesel falling back into the tank because of air leak somewhere. That lighted a bulb: whenever I keep her standing in an incline for some time, I can't start without pumping fuel manually first. When the manual pump starts to go hard, it's OK to start. It ,,seems'' that there's some fuel dripping from the fuel filter at that point. But I didn't find any wrong gaskets or so..

Can this be the reason? It just got much worse recently - don't know why, we drive her pretty much the same, the only thing that changed is cold, this started happening when the temperatures hit freezing (32F or so). Is there anything I can do with my limited tool access (pretty much just wrenches)?

Thanks for any clues..

I just finished dealing with air in a 40 series a couple of days ago, try bleeding it to see if it is indeed air. I replaced all my soft lines and clamps. You won't see a leak unless you pressurize the system. If you can use an air compressor and have someone blow air into your fuel line to the pump and from the pump to the tank, and return line you should be able to see a leak or hear a hiss.

 

[itchy355]

It is a 1993 HDJ-80 (1HD-T engine).. I've tried searching of course and only found mentions of the auto tranny fail, which also would make sense (the hydrodynamic errtgh howdoyaguys call that in English) -- as it only happens with any gear selected; in neutral or park it actually ,,heals'' the engine. Neither of course I know how to debug.. how can you tell the fuel lines are wrong? You are supposed to block the intake part of the fuel line (at the tank) and use some kind of a manual vacuum pump and see it ingest air instead of vacuum?

 

[itchy355]

I just finished dealing with air in a 40 series a couple of days ago, try bleeding it to see if it is indeed air. I replaced all my soft lines and clamps. You won't see a leak unless you pressurize the system. If you can use an air compressor and have someone blow air into your fuel line to the pump and from the pump to the tank, and return line you should be able to see a leak or hear a hiss.

okay thanks! Not really ready to replace everything as ... sadly .. everything is closed here (thanks COVID) . But this I can probably try somehow..

 

[D0g]

Is there a bleed nipple on your pump or filter? You should be able to manually prime it or crank the engine and see air bubbles come out, if it is indeed air.

 

[itchy355]

Is there a bleed nipple on your pump or filter? You should be able to manually prime it or crank the engine and see air bubbles come out, if it is indeed air.

I have a fuel filter like so (see photo, ignore the crap around it, sorry, it's my kitchen table )

If I pump with the manual pump beyond ,,feel hard'' I can hear some hissing around the fuel pump etc area but not really able to pin point it and it is very very faint. Not even sure if it's actually not normal because the feel of the pump button is really very hard (something like putting most of your weight on the pump to make it work)..

It is evening already here so I can continue in the morning with any further tests.. thanks for all the clues though!

 

[D0g]

I have a fuel filter like so (see photo, ignore the crap around it, sorry, it's my kitchen table )

If I pump with the manual pump beyond ,,feel hard'' I can hear some hissing around the fuel pump etc area but not really able to pin point it and it is very very faint. Not even sure if it's actually not normal because the feel of the pump button is really very hard (something like putting most of your weight on the pump to make it work)..

It is evening already here so I can continue in the morning with any further tests.. thanks for all the clues though!

View attachment 2557367

Check anywhere air could get in injectors, fuel filter, primer pump hoses, fuel tank etc. when pressurized you will see a leak or hear air good luck.

 

[mattimooseprime]

Run a clear line from the filter to the Injector pump, and see if its got lots of air in it? Or better yet, temporarily bypass the filter housing with a clear hose to eliminate that as the culprit.

 

[roscoFJ73]

I feel that if it was an air problem, it wouldnt start. In all the air problems I have seen , there is always a hard start problem because the fuel has ran back to the tank, leaving the IP empty.
Previous uphill problems in HDJ8O have been governor related, a weak spring from memory. But these others wouldn't idle when pointing uphill.

I would try a separate fuel container connected to the IP. This would tell you if its the fuel system or a mechanical issue with the pump.
I forget the exact figure, but I think they should hit 4200rpm in neutral (check the manual) for a few seconds. This tells you if the fuel system and IP are working ok.

Is it worse when its warmed up, like after 20 mins or more?

 

[itchy355]

Okay I'm back here. Thanks for all the good thoughts, I'm taking it one by one.

Current situation: I've replaced the fuel filter and put see-through lines from the engine compartment tank tube (it ends just below the brake cylinder if I'm correct) to fuel filter and from filter down to the fuel pump. Cranked the pump until fuel started going down to the pump and observed a IMO weird situation. I just can't get the line from filter to pump filled. Fuel just mysteriously disappears. There is no visible leak. It always stays about half full.

At this point I decided to give it a go and it starts just normally, tried driving several of my closest hills and there seemed to be no problem. Popped the hood just to see the line is almost empty, with a very little fuel going into the pump. So. Stopped the engine, disconnected the line from the filter, took a 100ml syringe and put diesel in there. Bzzzzt down it goes. Put 3 syringes in there until it seemed to stop ,,disappear''. Still no leaks! I was standing nose up at that point, so figured it might go through the fuel pump into the return line somehow? I tried to push fuel through it with my mouth (tastes quite good )) and I was able to push it very slowly down..

Anyway. Filled the tube as much as possible, reconnected it to the filter, started, drove home, checked again, almost empty.

Tried pumping again and there is a VERY faint hissing noise when pumping. Couldn't for the love of God find the source though, it's like very very faint..

But as there are no bubbles going up from the pump and very very tiny bubbles going from the tank (might as well been because I'd disconnected the line before as I was cleaning the screen so it might've caught some air..) and fuel falling into the fuel pump, it must be the fuel filter manual pump. Guess that one has to be replaced?

 

[roscoFJ73]

You rarely see fuel leak out. Filters often leak around the seal. The manual says the hand pump should draw fuel from the tank to the filter in 30 pumps. It could be leaking around the fuel line to the filter.
Has the gauze on the fuel pick up been checked? They can get blocked.

 

[itchy355]

I feel that if it was an air problem, it wouldnt start. In all the air problems I have seen , there is always a hard start problem because the fuel has ran back to the tank, leaving the IP empty.
Previous uphill problems in HDJ8O have been governor related, a weak spring from memory. But these others wouldn't idle when pointing uphill.

I would try a separate fuel container connected to the IP. This would tell you if its the fuel system or a mechanical issue with the pump.
I forget the exact figure, but I think they should hit 4200rpm in neutral (check the manual) for a few seconds. This tells you if the fuel system and IP are working ok.

Is it worse when its warmed up, like after 20 mins or more?

It happened when warmed up as well as when cold. Will try the 4200rpm thing some next day.

You rarely see fuel leak out. Filters often leak around the seal. The manual says the hand pump should draw fuel from the tank to the filter in 30 pumps. It could be leaking around the fuel line to the filter.
Has the gauze on the fuel pick up been checked? They can get blocked.

well yeah but 3 or 4 full syringes disappeard there, I would have to see something. The pickup in tank was cleaned, but nothing serious down there. Oh apart from one free steel plate in the tank, probably one of the tank partittions, had to move it away to be able to put the pickup back.. not possible to pull it out.

It was about 30 pumps, and the filter is new so dunno if it could leak. also replaced both seals in the filter drain thing in the bottom.

 

[itchy355]

It could be leaking around the fuel line to the filter.

the line is new now (pvc clear tube) so I guess I would have to order some better clamps, they're standard screw clamps now, might give that a shot

 

[CaptBeardilocks]

Not sure if you're still chasing an air leak or not but for future reference at least: I see that you have a fuel heater on the filter housing (not all markets got one). The o-rings have been known to fail on those and allow air in. Has driven more than one person crazy chasing it down.

 

[itchy355]

sure still am on a hunt. The truck now works but I want this resolved. Thanks, will check it out.

 

[itchy355]

Not sure if you're still chasing an air leak or not but for future reference at least: I see that you have a fuel heater on the filter housing (not all markets got one). The o-rings have been known to fail on those and allow air in. Has driven more than one person crazy chasing it down.

I can't find any mention about replaceable seals parts in the heater. Would you know the part numbers?


I looked up the part for the water level warning switch 84461-60050 which I will probably replace too as it looks very worn. Might as well use a filter without it as the wire has nowhere to be connected... IDK (my truck has many problems with wiring..). I guess there is no cheaper part without a warning switch just a drain plug?

 

[roscoFJ73]

It was about 30 pumps, and the filter is new so dunno if it could leak.

The filters still leak when new. Its just a matter of getting the seal right. You can buy the hand primer cheap. You could test it by seeing if it will pump from a fuel container. If its the original from new, its probably due for replacement.
The hand pump is designed to be used twice a year to change a filter or on the odd occasion when it runs out of fuel. Some owners get an air leak and pump like hell everyday until it starts (instead of fixing the problem) and its like the pump has done 50 years. In 27 years, I bet at least one PO has done this.

I guess there is no cheaper part without a warning switch just a drain plug?

There are lots of aftermarket options with water alarms, heaters. I don't know about prices but its probably easier to replace the entire unit, unless you want to keep it all original.

 

[CaptBeardilocks]

I can't find any mention about replaceable seals parts in the heater. Would you know the part numbers?


I looked up the part for the water level warning switch 84461-60050 which I will probably replace too as it looks very worn. Might as well use a filter without it as the wire has nowhere to be connected... IDK (my truck has many problems with wiring..). I guess there is no cheaper part without a warning switch just a drain plug?

Looking at my fiche I see the fuel heater assembly available but not the o-rings listed separately. I hate when they do that...

 

[itchy355]

okay tell ya what I will tomorrow disconnect both lines from the filter assy, block the tank side with my thumb, put a five inch line to the other side and try sucking anything out of it. Looks like it's my culprit. Yes I've myself been pumping like crazy many times when I parked nose up, so it's my fault too..=)