Cut and Buff - New Paint looks bad!!! (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Elliott]

Friends -

I have just finished an extensive respray detailed here: Painting Thread. Short version is it was done in epoxy primer, high build, then sealed, base and two coats of clear (PPG Shopline products). I have a fair amount of nibs and orange peel. Guy at the paint store suggested I do a dry sand with 2K grit and wet with 3K then compound and polish. It sat for 10 days before I started any sort of work on correcting issues so it was cured enough to cut and buff. I've tried a few spots and it looks awful. I can't get the scratches out with a couple of rounds of Megs 105 and 205.

My process was a DA with an interface pad, 2K discs, wet, lowest setting on the DA, light touch and for not very long. (maybe 30 seconds in a 12" x 12" section. This created a pretty matte finish. Then switched to 3K wet, same speed, double the time. I would have expected this to create a dull but reflective finish but it appeared as matte as the 2K. Then on to Megs 105 on orange medium cutting pad x 2 then Megs 205 on white pad x 2. Below are some pics - what am I doing wrong and, more importanly, can I fix it without a reclear?

Before sanding - glossy but wavy:

After the above process:

 

[Dilspec]

I don't know a lot about paint and body work.

Sort of looks like orange peel, similar to paint that comes out of Macco. (Nothing against your work at all). Doesn't epoxy paint usually have the eggshell/wavy finish? Should you have gone with urethane instead of epoxy?

 

[Jeff Elliott]

Sort of looks like orange peel, similar to paint that comes out of Macco. (Nothing against your work at all). Doesn't epoxy paint usually have the eggshell/wavy finish? Should you have gone with urethane instead of epoxy?

The first pic is orange peel and is in the clear. The epoxy was the first coat and has long since been flattened and covered by the high build primer, sealer and base. The cure for the orange peel is the problem I'm solving for - the sanding flattens it out no problem - I just can't get rid of the sanding scratches which shouldn't be a problem with 2k and 3k paper.

 

[-Spike-]

When I used to paint professionally, I would wet sand with 1000-1500 grit by hand within hours or next day after painting, followed by a round of buffing with 3M Supercut or 3M Imperial Microfinishing compound, then possibly 3M Finesse-It polishing compound if necessary.

I'd guess you may have a few issues. First, you probably have way too much paint film on there. Epoxies are generally single-stage and not intended to have clear sprayed over them, while clearcoats usually are used with basecoats, which are quite thin. Also, basecoats are designed to dry/cure very quickly so you can seal them with clearcoat and not have solvents trapped underneath. You may have some issues if your paints are not intended to be used as base/clears. I don't know what system you used, nor am I up on the latest paint tech, so that's guesswork on my part. Second, the paint has completely cured, so it's hard to remove scratches. Next, machine sanding often scratches surfaces much more than hand sanding, especially if anything gets on the paper. Finally, your buffing compounds may not be up to the task. I don't have any experience with Meguiars products on new paint.

To fix that I'd get a more aggressive buffing compound (and possibly pad, I don't know what an orange pad is) and go to town, possibly after hand-sanding it a bit with some 1500-2000 grit. You may cut through the clear, and you definitely risk burning the panel edges and contours with the pad if you are not very experienced with a buffer. No guarantees that you can fix it, especially if the paint chemistry is incompatible. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to repaint it, you just may have to lower your standards a bit.

 

[-Spike-]

The first pic is orange peel and is in the clear. The epoxy was the first coat and has long since been flattened and covered by the high build primer, sealer and base. The cure for the orange peel is the problem I'm solving for - the sanding flattens it out no problem - I just can't get rid of the sanding scratches which shouldn't be a problem with 2k and 3k paper.

Judging by this post you may not have a chemistry problem, if the epoxy is actually primer and not color. Sorry, I didn't follow your paint thread.

 

[LC4LIFE]

I always wet sand to remove orange peel. Looks to me like you just need to buff more. I always used Megs #2 on a wool pad, then #9 on a foam finishing pad. Usually that gets it pretty nice.

 

[Jeff Elliott]

Judging by this post you may not have a chemistry problem, if the epoxy is actually primer and not color. Sorry, I didn't follow your paint thread.

I updated the original post to confirm it was epoxy primer. Definitely no chemistry issues as I painted with the same product line, religiously followed the datasheets on prep, comparability, etc. I probably do have too much clear - which is likely what left me with the peel

I always wet sand to remove orange peel. Looks to me like you just need to buff more. I always used Megs #2 on a wool pad, then #9 on a foam finishing pad. Usually that gets it pretty nice.

That was the plan I followed on the wetsanding part. I agree perhaps a stronger buff - I don't have a rotary and am afraid of the risks that Spike mentioned earlier.

I used the orange "medium cutting pad" and "medium polishing pad" from these guys: Chemical Guys Hex Logic Pads

 

[LC4LIFE]

If you're not using an electric buffer you will have a really hard time getting rid of the sand scratches. Heat also helps soften the urethane making cutting it down happen easier. Two coats of clear is not too much. Peel has more to do with the spray than how many coats. The danger using an electric buffer is the edges of the panels or 'burning' the paint. Each is avoided pretty easily by paying attention. I also tape over all the edges of the panels I am working on until I am ready to specifically buff near the edges. That keeps from burning through the paint at the panel edges.

 

[daytonadogie]

I updated the original post to confirm it was epoxy primer. Definitely no chemistry issues as I painted with the same product line, religiously followed the datasheets on prep, comparability, etc. I probably do have too much clear - which is likely what left me with the peel



That was the plan I followed on the wetsanding part. I agree perhaps a stronger buff - I don't have a rotary and am afraid of the risks that Spike mentioned earlier.

I used the orange "medium cutting pad" and "medium polishing pad" from these guys: Chemical Guys Hex Logic Pads

Just finished painting my cruiser, and used a Harbor Freight 7” buffer with a wool pad after sanding. Used meg 105 and then 205 with a foam pad. I don’t think that a DA buffer will do the job. The 105 and wool pad cuts aggressively and will actually polish over #1500. Messy job though. Good luck.

 

[daytonadogie]

Just finished painting my cruiser, and used a Harbor Freight 7” buffer with a wool pad after sanding. Used meg 105 and then 205 with a foam pad. I don’t think that a DA buffer will do the job. The 105 and wool pad cuts aggressively and will actually polish over #1500. Messy job though. Good luck.

I got a lot of orange peel too, because I’m an amateur painter, so I sprayed on 4 coats of clear to get more film thickness. Didn’t want to burn through to the base when sanding. used 800 on the bad spots, then #1500. Used a little #2500 in a few spots but I was pretty happy with the results after #1500/105/205. Wasn’t going for a show finish. Here’s a pic:

 

[dugsgms]

Urethane clears are very hard, I typically buff after just a couple of days after shooting it to make life a bit easier. That being said, a DA will will not take out color sanding marks, you WILL need a rotary buffer. I also have used the Harbor Freight one with good results and I would recommend using some kind of diminishing compound(starts out aggressive and breaks down during use to end up a bit finer)for the first step. I usually use all foam pads with a softer pads with each step of finer compound but a wool pad will cut faster(be careful around sharp edges). Also, looks like a very dark color(black?) and in my experience with black, you will need to go back over with a DA buffer after the last step with the rotary to get out all the swirl marks left by the buffer unless you have alot of experience with buffing with a rotary.

Good luck and have with it and get ready for a good bit of work!

 

[greenscobie86]

Nice paint.

I think everyone hit on the key points here. In my humble opinion, I'd get wet sanding with 1000, then 2000. Check with a squeegee in between, you want that clear to be completely flat. Followed by M105 on wool, preferably on a rotary. Then 205 on foam to get the holograms out. Which DA are you using btw?
Also mask off edges/corners, and don't go crazy wet sanding areas you wont be able to buff/polish later due to access/hard edges/etc.

For polishing my game winning combo for fresh paint(with runs/orange peel/fish eyes/etc) has been:
- M105 on a Lake Country Purple Foamed Wool/foamed backing plate spun on a good rotary(Makita 9227C or Hitachi SP18VA are my faves although I buffed about 50 cars with a crappy $25 Chicago Electric rotary in my early days)
- M205 on a gray(soft/medium) foam pad on the same polisher.
- Wax of choice

 

[Kawabunga]

I'm not a professional paint guy but used to paint motorcycles for a while. I agree with the above, maybe heavier sand paper with a block and definitely a electric buffer, I used to use a wood pad sometimes not needed if you sand fine enough then finish with foam pads and 3M compounds, mostly the Finesse It line. You do need to be careful especially on the corners, wouldn't sand much in those areas as two coats is pretty thin. On bikes i'd usually do 4-6 coats especially with heavy graphic edges, sometimes needed to clear twice. It's tedious work, just don't get to rushing, good luck!.

 

[Jeff Elliott]

Great responses and appreciated! Answers / reactions / questions below:

What polisher am I using: Torx from Chemical Guys - was well recommended by the detailing communities. Torx random orbital
I used this "random orbital" with an interface pad and the 2K and 3K paper. The scratches I'm having the most difficulty getting rid of are the "pig tail" ones which are maybe a result of the "random orbital" action? I have an air powered "dual action" sander as well - should I have used it instead?

Sandpaper: The 2K paper has been getting the orange peel out quite well with very little effort on the torx with an interface pad and a spray bottle to wet / lubricate things. My problem seems to be the 3K - everything I've read / watched says that after the 3K paper things should be looking a bit shiny (dull shine). When I do it, it's still matte. The Megs 105 clears it up a bit but it's still hazy and those pig tails are still there. Here's a better shot of those (zoom in for a hi-res view):

I don't mind picking up a rotary and some pads if you guys think that will have a better shot at solving the problem. Sounds like I need rotary + foamed wool for cutting / compounding. Then can use the Torx I already have to polish it off?

Thanks all

 

[LC4LIFE]

You need to scrap the DA and get a rotary. The orbital you have will not solve this for you. Grab one of these and go to town, you will be shocked how quickly that and a wool pad will get rid of all those DA marks. Then follow it up with your DA and foam pads.

 

[Jeff Elliott]

Well, I did get a rotary, wool pads, foam heavy cutting pads, etc. Nothing worked any better than yellow extra heavy cutting pads on my Torx dual action and megs 105. Didn't use the rotary except on the roof as a test. Here's an example of the worst panel I had to deal with:

Pre-sanding... extreme orange peel!!!

Sanded with 2000 grit and buffed with megs 105... Note the reflection of the car - easiest way to see the difference in the next pic

After Megs 205 polish:

 

[stpetedale]

Rotary definitely cleaned that up nicely. The torx will definitely do an excellent job correcting the rotary swirls.

 

[Jeff Elliott]

Rotary definitely cleaned that up nicely. The torx will definitely do an excellent job correcting the rotary swirls.

Actually didn't use the rotary... Fixed the language up top to clarify. All dual action.

 

[Pippylongsausage]

Damn that looks good! Bet you’re glad that’s over.

 

[Kernal]

I'm impressed at the improvement in the appearance of the paint job.

Lots of good information above.