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Compiled coil, shock & suspension spec thread for 80 series

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by GW Nugget, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. GW Nugget

    GW Nugget I need to stop messing with it & just drive it!

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    THAT CHART HAS THE WRONG INFORMATION.
    I purposely did not use this chart because a few specs are wrong.
    [​IMG]
    The wire or bar diameter on the 851, 850 & 850J are not all the same, they are .5mm different from each other.
    The correct diameter are16mm, 16.5mm & 17mm.
    That chart reads as all 3 springs at 17mm/.669" this is incorrect.
    After looking directly from the current OME pdf it corrects all the confusion that I have had. Here is the correct onfo.[​IMG][​IMG]

    I called & wrote Emails to notify Cruiser Outfitters of this but nothing was changed on thier end.
    This is the chart that messed me up for years till I finally went to the OME pdf.
    Also on the 861 & 862 they have them down as single rate coils when they are dual rate.861 is 170/250 & 862 is 170/260
    See this thread to get the rest of the story. OME 851, 850 & 850J what is the difference?

    I'm glad I have taken the time to finally get this info all in one place, now I can even come back to reference to this.

    I will reference the other stuff when I get more time. Thank you all for your participation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
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  2. Nay

    Nay

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    The FOR are a dual rate coil, same diameter wind (not tapered). It was something like 170/260, but been too long for me to remember exactly.

    BA1D3E29-D857-469C-B4A8-3DF75DC28D64.jpeg

    From GW’s initial post on this thread, the flexi look more like a progressive than dual rate looking at the bottom of the spring in this pic, these being the front springs.

    1AD26522-3D24-4901-8FD5-5D3C47760D96.png

    I don’t know why Dobinson won’t publish their spring rates. I should know for the rear coils in a few days.
     
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  3. baldilocks

    baldilocks GOLD Star

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    The flexi green coils appear to be of the same design as FOR in the photo above.

    @half k cruiser installed 3” Flexi’s earlier this year and did a good write up with photos and follow up review.
     
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  4. half k cruiser

    half k cruiser

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    @Nay the green Dobinsons coil you pictured is going to be a dual rate. You have only two different pitches in the windings. It looks like the taller version of what I have on my truck.
     
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  5. Box Rocket

    Box Rocket

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    More suspension info that I've gathered for other (non-coil/shock) suspension components.

    Caster correction:

    Bushings.
    Slee Adjustable Caster bushings. 0-3* caster adjustment.
    [​IMG]

    OME Caster Correction bushings
    [​IMG]

    Caster Plates.
    Slee Caster Plates. Designed to correct caster on trucks with 4" suspension lifts
    [​IMG]

    Landtank Caster plates (available through Wits End) to correct caster for 2.5" lifts
    [​IMG]

    Landtank Caster plates (available through Wits End) to correct caster for 4" lifts
    [​IMG]

    Drop Brackets
    Man-a-Fre Caster correction drop brackets for 2-6" lift.
    [​IMG]

    Caster Bearings
    Slee Offroad 1* caster/camber bearings
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad 3* Caster/Camber bearings
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
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  6. Box Rocket

    Box Rocket

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    Control Arms:

    Fronts:

    Slee front control arms. Designed to correct caster for 6" lift
    [​IMG]

    Superior Engineering Superflex Radius arms for 2-6" lifts.
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Box Rocket

    Box Rocket

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    Control Arms:

    Rear: (Lower)

    Landtank HD rear lower control arms available through Wits End for 4" lifts (photo comparing Landtank arm to stock arm)
    [​IMG]

    Landtank HD rear lower control arms available through Wits End for stock height
    [​IMG]

    Blackhawk (4xOverlandUSA/Slinky) HD lower control arms available through Endless Horizon Outfitters. 11mm added length/rubber bushings
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad/SPC rear HD lower control arms
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad HD rear lower control arms
    [​IMG]

    Metal Tech HD Adjustable rear lower control arms
    [​IMG]

    Trail Tailor HD Adjustable rear lower control arms
    [​IMG]

    Rear: (Upper)

    Trail Tailor adjustable upper control arms
    [​IMG]

    Metal tech adjustable upper control arms
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad adjustable upper control arms
    [​IMG]

    Blackhawk (4xOverlandUSA/Slinky) Adjustable upper control arms available through Endless Horizon Outfitters
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Box Rocket

    Box Rocket

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    Panhards (Trackbars):

    Blackhawk (4xOverlandUSA/Slinky) front adjustable panhard. Rear adjustable panhard also available.
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad adjustable F/R panhards
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad DIY weld in panhard adjuster
    [​IMG]

    Wits End DIY weld in panhard adjuster
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. GW Nugget

    GW Nugget I need to stop messing with it & just drive it!

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    @Nay wrote "I don’t know why Dobinson won’t publish their spring rates."

    I say not listing specs on coils is like a tire manufacturer not list their specs on tires.

    Free height, wire diameter, spring rate & turns are simply specs not proprietary information.

    I really don't care what kind of metal it is or how you heat treated or any of that other stuff, but I what to know the specs.
     
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  10. Heckraiser

    Heckraiser

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    For reference, this is TJM 50mm progressive with 315's no extra weight in rig. No 3rd row = pretty level, very minor stinkbug. 2nd and 3rd row out = slight stinkbug. Squats just a little bit with my trailer hooked up (about 120# tongue weight?) No bump stop spacers and no issues with 315's *as long as you keep the weight down*

    20170712_172826_resized_1.jpg
     
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  11. DylanICON

    DylanICON

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    Good info!

    Just to add a bit

    There are actually 10 settings on CDC shocks

    The bump zone also works in rebound adding 20% more rebound in the last couple inches too.
     
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  12. Box Rocket

    Box Rocket

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    You’re correct. Not sure where I mixed up 8,10. Thanks.
     
  13. DylanICON

    DylanICON

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    The terminology and understanding of springs, spring rates and manufacturing methods is often muddled.

    I'm going to attempt to not make it worse while clarifying and correcting some info in this thread

    The rate of a coil is determined by its dimensions and the AMOUNT of material in play (flexing or moving). The ONLY way to change its rate is by taking material out of play or adding material. When coils touch one another they stop moving and are considered solid and not ACTIVE. When this happens less material now has to stress more to move the same overall amount and the rate goes up.

    Misconception #1: Tapered wire springs are inherently progressive or variable. If you have a coil made out of tapered wire and none of the coils ever touch it is linear. So why tapered wire? Packaging: When compressed block height is critical in a dual rate spring having the INACTIVE coils that are touching smaller saves space. Weight: If those inactive coils were thicker they would also weigh more(not so important for us to save a couple pounds. Marketing: Its cool because its different and harder to do. Disadvantages: Cost, consistency in manufacturing.

    Linear, Dual Rate, Variable, Progressive:
    Lets forget the term Progressive, I've seen both Variable and dual rate marketed as progressive.
    Dual rates are slightly variable, and Variables are usual not THAT variable, so its a gray area and again often marketing lingo.
    if you have a coil with 10 total coils, 4 are 1" apart, and 5 are 2", and because you cant have a sharp bend 1 coil transitions from the 2 different pitches. After the top 4 touch that one transition coil will slowly lay down onto the one above and create a slight and insignificant variable effect. If you took the same coil and none of the spacing's were the same (ie: 1.1", 1.2", 1.3", ect) you would have a true Variable rate spring. But in reality the rate later in the travel would be so high as to be undesirable, so we only do that for a couple of coils, and its not that different than the dual rate example. Highly variable springs are more useful in small travel applications for load control. A bump stop is a highly variable spring used over a short distance for high loads, but you don't want to ride around on your bump stops.

    THE MISSING VARIABLE:
    Where does the rate change relative to ride height? Are you riding in 1st or 2nd rate? For sake of argument lets call all non linear coils dual rate since most of the "variable/progressives" are only mildly so.
    Are the coils touching or not at ride height? Now this is just my personal terminology( grain of salt): When they are touching at ride height I call it a droop dual rate, and when there is a small gap at ride height I call it a compression dual rate.
    Droop Dual Rates: You are riding in 2nd rate (higher). Main benefit is articulation without unseating coil. the ride(2nd) rate can be whatever it was designed to be and for most of the driving feel and performance it would react similar to a linear coil of the same rate until the linear got loose in the bucket.
    Compression Dual Rate: You are riding in 1st rate(softer), typically softer than its linear counterpart and more comfortable. The 2nd rate is typically higher than its linear counterpart and aids in bottom out resistance and performance reaction to larger obstacles. Can help with payload but needs to deflect to pick up rate. This is how all OE truck Leaf springs are set up to carry payload yet ride correctly when empty.
     
  14. Nay

    Nay

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    ^^^the question related to static load is are you riding in the transition zone between rate 1 and rate 2?

    If so, moderate added load (passengers, gear) will not affect suspension feel as rate 2 engages, whereas higher static load (overlanding accessories) effectively makes the coil linear as you are riding on the higher base rate full time.

    Or do we believe there is no transition zone, as if two different rate coils were welded together?

    The question that nobody answers is why tapering is better than a dual rate with a constant diameter? The claim 8 or 9 years ago was that tapering was needed to keep the coil from failing at the dual rate transition point. That’s been completely debunked, so what is the purpose of a tapered wind when extra winds can also be added to a constant diameter dual rate coil to ensure extra coil length for longer shocks?

    Is there a tapered design for any vehicle outside of the 80 series? What is being gained for the cost premium?
     
  15. Nay

    Nay

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    That’s what I had thought in my first impressions, thanks for the confirmation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  16. Lumpskie

    Lumpskie

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    One benefit I can see is that the narrower wire allows for a higher free height for a given ride height. That allows you to run lots of down travel at a low ride height. (I believe that's why you get 24" free heights for the Slinky and Dobinson taper 3" kits while only getting 21" for the Icon 3")
     
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  17. Box Rocket

    Box Rocket

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    Bit more info. This time swaybars. Like with my earlier posts this may not be 100% comprehensive but hits some of the more common aspects.

    Wits End HD swaybar link brackets (rear)
    [​IMG]

    Wits End HD rear swaybar links for lifts up to 4"
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad swaybar drop bracket for '93-95 80 series
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad swaybar drop brackets for '96-97 80 series
    [​IMG]

    Slee Offroad front swaybar drop blocks
    [​IMG]

    Whiteline HD rear swaybar
    [​IMG]

    Roughstuff rear swaybar kit
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    LCP front swaybar disconnects
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. GW Nugget

    GW Nugget I need to stop messing with it & just drive it!

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    @DylanICON A lot have asked what is the difference in the Icon 56511 & 56512 shocks from the AutoCraft spec 75mm shocks. I have noticed some terminology difference.
    Yours has VS IR & AutoCraft has IFP.

    2.0 VS IR shocks 4" to 6" lift
    Front 56511 16.85" - 28.17"
    Rear 56512 16.85" - 27.42"

    What does VS mean?
    What does IR mean?
    What does IFP mean?
     
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  19. DylanICON

    DylanICON

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    VS - Is just our marketing abbreviation for "Vehicle Specific" valving and fit up. not a general shock term

    IR - Internal Reservoir
    IFP - Internal Floating Piston
    These refer to the same thing. the IFP is the part that separates the oil from the nitrogen in the top of the shock to form the internal reservoir. If it were a remote reservoir configuration that same floating piston would be in the reservoir separating oil and nitrogen, it just wouldn't be internal to the shock but external. So, IFP / IR...same thing.

    The difference in the autocrat shocks is their valving. And on the 2.5 shocks they do a piggy back shock in the back and add their bracket that keeps the reservoir from rotating into the sway bar, and we do a hose remote, and again different valving.

    So, our 3" lift and the Slinky 75mm lift should be close to the same ride height, with a little variance depending on your weight. However the slinky kit uses a bump stop spacer and is a dual rate droop set up. ICON compresses all the way to factory bump and is dual rate compression. ICON is set up for about equal compression travel and droop travel. I've always tried to maintain as much compression travel as possible.
     
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  20. Lumpskie

    Lumpskie

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    The bump stop part of this equation made me curious. For a 3" lift, Slinky shocks compress to 16.85 and Icon shocks compress to 15.35 and 15.6...

    @GW Nugget How tall is the bump stop extension that comes with the Slinky kit? Also, I remember seeing a Youtube video with your rig flexed where I thought you showed full flex with suspension to the bump stops... and something like an inch and a half of travel left in the shocks (for bump stop compression I'm guessing). Just wondering if the extra half inch of shock travel is used or not.
     
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