Brake Pads: 4Runner Front & 60 Rear Discs? (1 Viewer)

[Tinker]

So I'm finally herding everything together for the serious brake upgrade & am looking for brake pad experiences. We're talking 4Runner calipers up front on a 62 axle, 60/62 calipers out back on a FF, Mountain 60/62 rotors all around, SS flex lines everywhere, & park brake prototype on the Xfer case courtesy TSM (thanks, guys!). All this on an '84 60 with 5.7 Vortec/4L60E, Dakar heavy/heavy, 4.11s, & 33x10.50s, & big bumpers.

Searching I found Axxis Ultimate Ceramic, Hawk Ferro-Carbon, Porterfield Carbon Kevlar, & Raybestos (no model name) in addition to stock Toyota. I tend to not like metallic pads, but am attracted to ceramic & anything kevlar.

What are you running & how do you like 'em? Remember the the old saying: "Germans don't care if the brakes squeak as long as they stop the car. Americans don't care if the brakes stop the car as long as they don't squeak."

 

[88chevota]

any progress on this? I am thinking of running 95 nissan pathfinder LE rear disc brake parts for a rear set up. I am hoping to go to the pull yard soon and see what I can find. It has potential to be a fairly easy mod.

 

[cody c]

im running 4runner calipers with oem pads and new oem rotors, in the back i have chevy rotors and monte carlo calipers. I havent swapped out the master yet because im to f@#$ing busy, but im on 40" tires and it stops very well considering. Its just getting used to the pedal travel that is wierd. It moves about half way then brakes hard. No regrets here except the lack of parking brake.
booyakasha!

 

[rover67]

looks like a wicked old thread, but i'll post since i like my pads.

i have hawk hp pads on stock napa rotors and runner calipers up front. they have never made a single squeak, and have stopped great even after i've tried to make them fade on some decent descents. the will lock up my 35" tires no prob.

Hawk HP SuperDuty brake pads

 

[Mace]

You won't like running a 4 piston caliper in the rear..

Monte carlo single piston calipers are much more suited for the job..

 

[ntsqd]

I'll have to differ there. The GM calipers, even the smaller, so-called "Metric" calipers (D154 pads) are a 2.5" OD piston. They are huge!
IME the Toyota caliper piston diameters are small enough that even with two of them the piston area is still smaller than the 'small' GM caliper (since when doing the calc you only count one side of the caliper anyway).

The most ideal rear caliper piston area results in the base brake bias being close enough that a p-valve may not even be needed. This is possible with a consistent loading of the vehicle, though rare because of the available piston sizes.

Given all of that, I've been pondering the use of the calipers off of the early 2wd disc brake mini trucks for a rear caliper conversion. These are a fixed 2 piston caliper and possibly have a small enough piston to get the baseline brake bias somewhere close to correct. I've yet to glom onto a set for measurement and the diameters listed in my parts books for Toyota applications have proven to be off - so I do not rely on them any more.

 

[GAS-A-LOT!]

I run, stock rear with mc & runner calipers in the front with basic brakes from autozone. They work fine. I can lock wheels on the fly! will upgrade rear when the rear brakes start to leak (Ive heard its a poblem) untill then, my 60 can brake as hard as a porshe. Maybe not on a dime (huge heavy brick too much to stop) but still can lock wheels anyday!

 

[Mace]

I'll have to differ there. The GM calipers, even the smaller, so-called "Metric" calipers (D154 pads) are a 2.5" OD piston. They are huge!

IME the Toyota caliper piston diameters are small enough that even with two of them the piston area is still smaller than the 'small' GM caliper (since when doing the calc you only count one side of the caliper anyway).

The most ideal rear caliper piston area results in the base brake bias being close enough that a p-valve may not even be needed. This is possible with a consistent loading of the vehicle, though rare because of the available piston sizes.

Given all of that, I've been pondering the use of the calipers off of the early 2wd disc brake mini trucks for a rear caliper conversion. These are a fixed 2 piston caliper and possibly have a small enough piston to get the baseline brake bias somewhere close to correct. I've yet to glom onto a set for measurement and the diameters listed in my parts books for Toyota applications have proven to be off - so I do not rely on them any more.

Exactly, with the stock master (or most of the common "aftermarket" units) The MC caliper requires enough fluid to be "softer" than the stock toy 4 piston units...
Just putting a stock set of 4 piston toy calipers on the back gives you significantly more braking power than necessary because of the way the system is balanced. You can tone it down with a proportioning valve. But most I have seen will still lock the rear up way to easily..

The MC calipers are much easier to adjust till they do not lock up before the fronts..

Also, I prefer the single floating design for assy reasons as well. The fixed caliper is much harder to get positioned exactly correctly. Fudge factor is nice for people.

The 2 piston 2wd stuff might be interesting tho..

 

[Mace]

btw, My 60 runs the stock rear drums and IFS calipers on the front.

with an auto and 35's it will lock all 4 up (fronts first) without issue. But, everything is new..

 

[Tinker]

Do the 2WD front calipers use the same mounts as the 60/62 fronts? I agree with Mace that the mounting is more of a hassle with multi-piston calipers, but I hate single-piston floating-frame calipers. Never had any that had even pad wear. I'd planned on using a prop valve if the bias is obnoxious, but thought the extra rear brakes might help when pulling a heavy trailer.


TSM is making me prototype mounts for the 60/62 front calipers on the FF - I took them a hub & rotor today so they can figure out the side-to-side spacing (already have the bracket dialed in).

Anyone have opinions on the Hawk pads or others? That's what this thread was supposed to be about.

 

[ntsqd]

I don't find opposed piston calipers all that difficult to design mounts for, but then I used to do that for a living. 3D CAD is a real bonus, but the radial distance is easy enough with graph paper if you take a little time to measure and lay it out carefully. Put the pad as far out radially as you can, minus a little to keep the outer edge of the pad from falling off the OD of the rotor. Any offset between mounting points can be a little more tricky if it is to be a bolt-on bracket. Absolutely isn't an easy thing to cut out at home. A friendly machinist is worth his weight in beer/donuts/whatever you feed him.

Based solely on a calibrated eyeball that looked at them several years ago they are close to the bolt center to bolt center distance of the 4wd mini truck calipers, but I've not yet gotten a set to actually measure. I've no idea if the pad centroid relative to the bolts is the same or not. I mentioned them because they looked promising to me at the time and perhaps they'll work for someone here.

I've no experience with Hawk pads. When I asked them years ago at a PRI Show about a friend's 7k lbs Scout II (that uses ford calipers for which they made pads at the time) I was told "7000 lbs? 7000 lbs? Dude, I can't help you!"
Friends of mine have used them on warm to hot street cars. Have not heard anything bad, but that application is different. Do they offer a pad compound that looks good for on/off road applications?

I've gotten excellent service from Carquest Fleet pads in my domestic 4wd on and off road. Have yet to need to try them in any of my Toyotas.

 

[CruisinFJ60]

btw, My 60 runs the stock rear drums and IFS calipers on the front.

with an auto and 35's it will lock all 4 up (fronts first) without issue. But, everything is new..

i cant lock mine up even if i pull on the steerign wheel and both feet on the brake...

and that is with new pads and rotors up front, newish (few months old at the time i tried to lock em up) T-100 master cylinder, 1 new rear wheel cylinder, new rear shoes and all adjusted properly. At the time i was on 35's and did my test on dry concrete. I have yet to try again with the 33's back on but would only assume given the poor braking experience i have always had it still wouldnt lock them up maybe get the fronts to make some noise but prolly not lock em up.

 

[ntsqd]

[hijack]A skidding tire slows down the truck less rapidly than a rolling tire. I don't see locking up the tires as anything worth pursuing.

How does the pedal feel and how far does it travel before things start to happen?

My guess is that the T-100 mc has a larger bore. Which means that you have less ability to generate line pressure. So the pedal feels rock hard, but the brakes don't do much of anything.
A smaller mc bore may start to feel spongy (if you go too small), but it will make more line pressure for the same pedal effort (& the pedal will travel further in the process). I'd try a stock mc and see what that does for your braking.
[/hijack]

 

[rover67]

i like my hawks a lot, read up a few posts..

have not had them fade yet and they grab great. have been running them on race cars and street cars/trucks for a while now.

 

[Mace]

[hijack]A skidding tire slows down the truck less rapidly than a rolling tire. I don't see locking up the tires as anything worth pursuing.

How does the pedal feel and how far does it travel before things start to happen?

My guess is that the T-100 mc has a larger bore. Which means that you have less ability to generate line pressure. So the pedal feels rock hard, but the brakes don't do much of anything.
A smaller mc bore may start to feel spongy (if you go too small), but it will make more line pressure for the same pedal effort (& the pedal will travel further in the process). I'd try a stock mc and see what that does for your braking.
[/hijack]

The skidding tire is not a great thing for fast stopping. But it does mean that you are using your breaks to their maximum extent. If you cannot lock up your brakes, then your system is not working as well as it should (not just a LC thing, more global on brakes)

t100 does have a larger bore, and potentially it does not have a 10 lb residual valve for the rear circuit (I do not remember if drums were an option or not)

Sometimes, brake "upgrades", are not...

 

[88chevota]

so what do you guys think about the nissan pathfinder factory rear disc breaks?

 

[Tinker]

Id seen this possibility somewhere on Mud from someone in OZ IIRC. If the piston size(s) is/are compatible, the rotors adaptable, & the park brake easy to integrate, why not?

Remember: you can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs.

 

[ntsqd]

The skidding tire is not a great thing for fast stopping. But it does mean that you are using your breaks to their maximum extent. If you cannot lock up your brakes, then your system is not working as well as it should (not just a LC thing, more global on brakes)

That's just the thing, it's not a good indicator of anything except for the ability of the clamping force combined with the Cf of the pads to exceed the tire's traction. There are too many other dynamics involved to use that simple test as the sole qualifier of whether the system is a good one or not.

It is only a global thing because it keeps getting promoted as being the most ideal situation. I can build you a brake system that will lock the tires up in any condition and any time, and still be some of the poorest brakes you've ever driven.
You won't like the pedal feel of that system.
You won't like the pedal travel of that system.
You won't like the brake modulation ability of that system.
But it will lock the tires on command.

There is a very good book on brakes here:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/
I'd link it direct, but for the last 5 minutes their page has been stalled on me.

t100 does have a larger bore, and potentially it does not have a 10 lb residual valve for the rear circuit (I do not remember if drums were an option or not)

Sometimes, brake "upgrades", are not...

Thanks, and ain't that the truth!
The single T-100 I've ever been around had rear drums. To get rear discs on that truck they went to a 9" with the Exploder brakes. Also made it easier to match the IFS 9" front ratio.

Tinker, you bought those Hawk pads yet? LOL.....

 

[Mace]

That's just the thing, it's not a good indicator of anything except for the ability of the clamping force combined with the Cf of the pads to exceed the tire's traction. There are too many other dynamics involved to use that simple test as the sole qualifier of whether the system is a good one or not.

It is only a global thing because it keeps getting promoted as being the most ideal situation. I can build you a brake system that will lock the tires up in any condition and any time, and still be some of the poorest brakes you've ever driven.
You won't like the pedal feel of that system.
You won't like the pedal travel of that system.
You won't like the brake modulation ability of that system.
But it will lock the tires on command.

There is a very good book on brakes here:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/
I'd link it direct, but for the last 5 minutes their page has been stalled on me.

Agreed, but just like everything else, most people do not have the ability or desire to do the calculations to identify perfection.

And for the most part, it is not needed. You are starting with a braking system that was designed by the factory fairly well (but not really for huge tires). It was balanced reasonably well from the factory. Typically the upgrades are there to return you to the more "stock" feeling. And those mods need to be with readily available and inexpensive . Trail and error are more the backwoods mechanics way of identifying what works and what does not.

As a general rule, if you can lock the brakes up on pavement, you have adequate braking ability. It is up to the lugnut behind the wheel to modulate that braking power The coefficient of friction of the brakes and clamping force are exactly what manages to slow the car down. If you cannot exceed the coefficient of friction of the tires contact patch, you are not getting the maximum braking ability..

For some reason I think you have a degree (or are getting one) in engineering

The nissan pathfinder rear disks are an excellent idea.
Get one and install it!

 

[88chevota]

I am hoping to go to the pull yard this weekend and I'll see what I can find.

thanks