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BAD VIBES....MAJOR BAD VIBES....

Discussion in '60-Series Wagons' started by dogboy, Mar 3, 2004.

  1. dogboy

    dogboy

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    New problem: I've got a big vibration being transmitted through the gear shift lever and underfoot when the motor and drivetrain are under load. It goes away if I depress the clutch and reappears as soon as I re-engage. Are my U-Joints toast? Driveshaft?????

    Second problem: steering wheel has developed a big shimmy when I hit about 45 mph and is more pronounced when taking a bend left or right on the highway -- more pronounced when taking a left handed bend at speed. Toyota dealership can't figure it out. Tires have been rebalanced and rotated. Feels like something is loose in the front end but Toyota checked all steering components and came back scratching their heads. ???

    Both problems are getting worse every time I drive the rig. Anybody have any great ideas for me?

    Thanks for the help,
    -dogboy- '87 FJ60
     
  2. Poser

    Poser Oh...Durka Durka Durka. s-Moderator Supporting Vendor

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    What is the condition of the engine mounts and the tranny isolator?

    How is your truck set up?

    Stock/lifted/size of tires, etc.

    Have you spent any time verifying the condition of all steering components?

    Are your knuckles leaking grease/gear oil?

    A little help here...

    -Steve
     
  3. dogboy

    dogboy

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    Poser,
    thanks for the quick reply...here's some more info:

    • What is the condition of the engine mounts and the tranny isolator?[glow=red,2,300][/glow]: good question, I'll have to take a good look

    • How is your truck set up?[glow=red,2,300][/glow]: full OME suspension (2.5 - 3" lift) with castor correction shims(front only), 33x10.5x15 BFG AT/KO's, Black Rock Crawler rims with 1/4" spacers(front), stock 2F with H55F 5-speed tranny, rear Kaymar w/ tire carrier, & roller drawers

    • Have you spent any time verifying the condition of all steering components?
    [glow=red,2,300][/glow]: Yes - on my first inspection (pre-dealership inspection), everything was tight and could not locate or identify any loose component. Toyota could not find anything wrong/loose/etc... with the steering components (last week). Will have to crawl under her again tommorrow and check again.

    • Are your knuckles leaking grease/gear oil?
    [glow=red,2,300][/glow]: Toyota rebuilt the knuckles, replaced the axle seals, repacked the wheel bearings, and the locking hubs, changed oil in the tranny, transfer, and both diffs, and lubed chassis & driveline components 2 months ago (less than 1000 miles). No visible leaking at this time and had Toyota re-check their work last week.

    Other things to consider:
    • steering gear box has leaked steadily since truck purchase 2 yrs. ago
    • having some issues with the OME front springs - ?leafs shifting in the spring pack?

    Does this help give you any clues?

    Thanks again,
    -dogboy- '87 FJ60
     
  4. Pin_Head

    Pin_Head

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    Vibration that appears under load is sometimes due to excess wear/slop in the slip joint on the drive shaft. It can also be bad U joints or loss of preload in the pinion and TC output shaft bearings. Get under there and jerk the drive shaft around in several directions. There should be no slop; just rotational play.
     
  5. Poser

    Poser Oh...Durka Durka Durka. s-Moderator Supporting Vendor

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    Are any suspension components loose?

    When was the last time you checked the tightness of the ubolts holding the front axle to the leaf springs?

    What degree shim are you using up front?

    When you move the steering wheel, how much rotation is there before the gear arm starts to move? (Will need an extra set of eyes on this one)

    Something has to be loose, front steering or suspension someplace....

    Many people have posted that the leaves in the OME packs shift around a bit up front, and on the wagons that I have worked on, this has been the case. I have tapped them square again, and verified that the ubolts are tight...

    Verify the ubolts tightness..

    Did Toyota replace the knuckle bearings when they went through the knuckles? Have you removed the wheel and tire, and removed the tie rod to see what you have for a pre-load on them, or if there is any freeplay there?

    Just another guess...There are so many things in the mix..

    I would look at the gear, and the play in the wheel/column in relation to steering component movement..and verify that all suspension components are tight.

    Good luck!

    -Steve
     
  6. Poser

    Poser Oh...Durka Durka Durka. s-Moderator Supporting Vendor

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    [quote author=Pin_Head link=board=1;threadid=12516;start=msg114845#msg114845 date=1078383993]
    Vibration that appears under load is sometimes due to excess wear/slop in the slip joint on the drive shaft. It can also be bad U joints or loss of preload in the pinion and TC output shaft bearings. Get under there and jerk the drive shaft around in several directions. There should be no slop; just rotational play.
    [/quote]

    Make sure that you chock the wheels and have the truck in neutral, as if it is in gear, and there is any driveline load or binding, this will not give you an accurate diagnosis of the condition of things under there..


    Good point pinhead :beer:
     
  7. FJAfrica

    FJAfrica

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    1: Sounds to me like the rear u-joint. Pull it apart & check
    2: Check the steering damper, shimmy normally occurs when that starts to go.
     
  8. Jukelemon

    Jukelemon

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    Have you been in mud lately? Dried mud/rock can throw off the driveshaft especially if it is in the u joint.

    A bad (can happen at any time) pilot bearing will cause the exact same symptom. If the U Joints are fine I would lean toward the PB. In my experience, U joints just do not go bad i.e. like while driving there is a sudden change. Usually it is a gradual wear issue (unless of course your snap ring broke for some reason. But again, unusual. I had a vehicle do this EXACT same thing. As well, if it is the PB, it will be awful right at start (shake like the drive shaft is about to come through the floor) but then it will calm down when you get moving/ At faster speeds, the car will shake and feel like a very bad u joint. Just my experience and it was the last thing I checked/expected.
     
  9. dogboy

    dogboy

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    thanks for all of the input.....looks like I've got plenty to keep me busy this weekend

    i'll post back with the results of my quest....

    -dogboy- '87 FJ60
     
  10. folsom50

    folsom50

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    dogboy, I'm with Pin-head, if you have some jack stands then lift the rear and try to move the RE pinion flange. Your problem sounds exactly the same as mine. I could only find a small amount of movement in flange, took the rear driveshaft off and the U-joints where really tight, my pilot bearing has 3000 miles on it, the vibe was there before and after my rebuild. Putting the rear on jackstands (be sure to chock the front wheels) made the slop in the rear pinion bearing show up in a big way.
     
  11. c r uiser

    c r uiser

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    what is the pre load all about? and how do you go about setting it?
    I have a vibration on my 88 62 @ around 50 to 60 mph. It doesent happen all the time just when I am trying to accelerate up a slight incline. I have had the drive shaft balanced and the ujoints are ok. :)
     
  12. dogboy

    dogboy

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    O.K., I was a busy boy today and did my cruiser chores. Here's what I found in relation to my problems posted at the start of this thread:

    • Suspension: both front shocks were very loose at the top mounts, the sway bar was too loose at the bushing connecting bolt/nut (both sides), and the front springs shift in the spring pack due to missing pads between the spring clips and the leaf assembly on both sides. Everything else was still torqued down tight to spec and looked/felt good.

    • Steering: adjusted/tightened the drag link ends which seemed to tighten up the steering a bit, checked the tie rod ends for slop up & down, and side-to-side - only movement was a slight rotational movement which I assume is ?normal?. Wheel bearings are definitely loose on both sides - so painfully obvious that Toyota should be very embarassed when I haul it back in there so they can fix their work (tires & wheels my ass!). Gear box will need to be rebuilt or replaced very soon and I'm having doubts about the steering shaft joint.

    • Drivelines: Front driveline U-joints hand tested out O.K., but there is a grinding/binding sound that can be heard and felt in the driveline just behind the U-joints where the companion flange connects and enters the transfer case. Feels like a bearing has died.... The rear driveline U-joints hand tested O.K. as well (one hand on each opposing yoke and twisting the joint in opposing directions) but found up & down play where the driveline connects to the transfer case, some rotational slop at the slip joint, and more play where the companion flange meets the pinion shaft at the rear differential -- I don't pretend to know, but I'm guessing that there shouldn't be any slop, anywhere in any of the driveline components, am I right?

    So that's where I netted out today. Toyota will get a call in the a.m. to take care of the wheel bearings/knuckle bearings leaving me with the shift lever vibration to solve. After what I found today, does anyone have any more insight for me?

    Thanks much for all of the help so far, you guys have been right on....

    -dogboy- '87 FJ60
     
  13. 60wag

    60wag SILVER Star

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    The slop in the pinion shaft at the rear diff MIGHT be reduced by retorqueing the pinion nut - if you're lucky. The slop in the rear output shaft of the tcase could be a bigger issue but is likely the source of the vibration. Remove the driveshaft and see if both the pinion nut and tcase flange nut are properly staked in place. If they aren't, torque 'em and stake 'em and keep your fingures crossed.
     
  14. dogboy

    dogboy

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    thanks 60WAG, I was wondering when you were going to jump into the fray.....

    now, if I do as you are suggesting and find that they are staked in place and still tight, what am I looking at and what does that mean from a repair standpoint? Looking back at Pinhead's reply, it sounds like there should be no slop anywhere in any part of the driveline and I've got slop at the T-case, at the slip joint, and at the rear diff. Am I looking at repairs to all three components?

    And then there's that noisy front driveline at the T-case.....feels and sounds like a bad bearing - where do I look?

    Thanks for all of the input....keep it coming!

    -dogboy- '87 FJ60
     
  15. Bull22

    Bull22

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    It sounds to me like your u joints need to be repaced. Just replace the set I need to replace one and am going to replace all of them. I will keep the ones that still seem good in the FJ for spares.
     
  16. 60wag

    60wag SILVER Star

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    The 85 and later diffs use a crush sleeve to properly load the pinion bearings. If your bearings have loosened up and the nut isn't loose on the pinion shaft, you may be able to further crush the sleeve to gain some preload. Its not the best way to fix it, but if the bearings are still in good shape, you'll be fine for a while.

    How long has the H55 been in there? Was the Tcase rebuilt when installed? If the front ouput bearing is crunchy and the rear output shaft is loose, I'd rec' rebuilding the case before the gears inside get damaged. Its not too tough and can be done under truck. The Toyota book has all the info you need. Their step by step procedure can be a bit overwhelming, but you can do it in a weekend easily.

    I'd pull both front and rear driveshafts. Inspect all the ujoints and slipjoints. Jack up each axle and give the pinion flange a good wiggle. If you still can't say if they are loose, stick a magnetic base with an indicator on there to measure it. Anything more than a couple of thousanths is loose. Do the same with the tcase flanges. The rear output shaft is mounted is some tapered bearings and the preload is set with shims. If the shaft is loose, and the nut hasn't come loose, the only way to regain the bearing fit is to reshim or replace the bearings and shim to fit. Hopefully you'll find that the nuts weren't properly staked in place. If the pinion nut isn't staked properly, it can cause a very dangerous condition. If the nut unscrews, the pinion shaft will get sucked into the diff and bind up the ring gear. Not a fun thing at 50mph.
     
  17. Pin_Head

    Pin_Head

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    Both the TC flange and pinion flange should have no play either sideways or in and out. They should only rotate a few degrees back and forth. If they have slop, it could be due to bearing failure. Metal flakes on your magnetic drain plug is a good indicator of bearing failure. As mentioned above the pinion nut can come off if it was not properly staked. If the bearing is good, you can just retighten it. Measure the turning force ( in inch pounds) on the pinion with the nut loose and tighten it just enough to add 8 more inch pounds to this turning force. The slip joint shouldn't have any play other than sliding in and out.
     
  18. dogboy

    dogboy

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    great feedback, I really appreciate it.....

    sounds like if there is play in the slip joint, the only remedy is to replace the driveline, yes?

    the play at the TC flange and the pinion flange was noted by pushing up on the driveline from below and pushing and pulling it around (tranny in neutral, e-brake off, rear end jacked up and supported on jack stands). the play at the pinion without a doubt exceeds a couple of thousanths while the TC flange was noticable but not as great as that of the pinion.

    sounds like a complete overhaul of the drivetrain would not be a bad idea....maybe overkill but I have a feeling that repair is going to involve more than one component already

    thanks again....I'll report back when I know more or make the repairs....

    -dogboy- '87 FJ60