Bad day in the shop….. coolant in oil pan

[sloanstavern]

Things were humming along just too well….
I am in the final stages of a frame off for my 1982FJ 45 Troopy from Saudi Arabia, a non-US F2 vehicle - it had a non functioning oil cooler, I replaced with a non cooler filter bracket

I have the new wiring harness in and was getting ready to test fire my engine that I refreshed two years ago. With no coolant and a few drops of gas, she popped nice and I got good oil pressure. Then I added coolant, popped it again and it ran for a few seconds and I noticed no oil pressure. In total it did not run for more than 10 seconds. I opened the oil drain plug and out gush water and mocha. The coolant from the block and the radiator were clean and fresh no sign of oil.

I pulled the rocker arm cover And no issues with the freeze plugs, and the oil looks clean and uncontaminated.

The motor ran fine before I removed it and all I did was have a head ground and freshened up.

Given the volume of coolant in the oil pan in a matter of seconds and no sign of leaking before the rebuild I am thinking I’ve got a plug missing or the head gasket may not be blocking a coolant circuit or an oil channel?

Could it be that the incorrect gasket maybe for a US engine used on this non-US motor could cause the oil and Coolant stream to mingle? Or is there a plug behind the water pump I’m missing?

Any tips on where to start short of pulling the head off would be greatly appreciated please let me know if you have any questions thanks

 

[NOSAJ]

This exact thing happened to me on a 2h. I brought my hj45 in from Central America. Hopefully you will have better news than I did. PO in Central America put straight water in the radiator. No antifreeze. When it got up here in the winter the block froze internally. I had great oil pressure and the truck ran fine. When I started pouring coolant in then my problem showed up with the antifreeze going straight into the crankcase within seconds.

 

[65swb45]

WAG: pull the plugs and turn the motor over by hand. Head gasket not properly torqued.

 

[sloanstavern]

WAG: pull the plugs and turn the motor over by hand. Head gasket not properly torqued.

Then check TRQ?
WAG?

 

[tlaporte]

WAG = Wild A** Guess

 

[Steamer]

This pic might help with the guessing. It's an F.5 head but pretty similar I believe.

 

[Living in the Past]

Had this happen over forty years ago. Can't remember if it was a head gaskets flipped or the wrong gasket. Can't remember which. I do remember having only the header hooked up and antifreeze coming the end.

 

[sloanstavern]

This pic might help with the guessing. It's an F.5 head but pretty similar I believe.

View attachment 2925532

Thanks I was away from the shop today, but I plan to pull the plugs tonight and see if there’s any coolant in the cylinders.

The part about this that has me scratching my head is the antifreeze is crystal clear. Since oil pressure is much higher than the cooling system I would expect to see oil push down somehow unless there’s a plug on the low pressure side of the oil system that’s allowing coolant in 10.

there’s no coolant on the rocker arm assembly and how fast the fluid filled the oil pan to be really sounds like a port but should be blocked is open

.

 

[pb4ugo]

I'd pressure test the cooling system b4 tearing it apart. You might hear water running.

 

[sloanstavern]

I'd pressure test the cooling system b4 tearing it apart. You might hear water running.

Thanks good idea. I pulled the plugs and all cylinders are dry. Did a minor league compression check and all six cylinders have uniform compression just over 120 psi. ( cold engine, just one turn per cyl)

TRQ on the head bolts was good as well

 

[Living in the Past]

Thanks I was away from the shop today, but I plan to pull the plugs tonight and see if there’s any coolant in the cylinders.

The part about this that has me scratching my head is the antifreeze is crystal clear. Since oil pressure is much higher than the cooling system I would expect to see oil push down somehow unless there’s a plug on the low pressure side of the oil system that’s allowing coolant in 10.

there’s no coolant on the rocker arm assembly and how fast the fluid filled the oil pan to be really sounds like a port but should be blocked is open

.

Keep in mind the oil is only under pressure from the oil pump outlet until it reaches what it suppose to be lubricating. After that it just drains back into the sump (oil pan). Cooling system on the other hand is a closed system. With the thermostat close the engine the system has hgher pressure than the radiator. That can explain why coolant is clean and oil is contaminated. Why suggested head gasket issue. Getting that contaminated that quickly could and I could be head gasket passage problem. Coolant flowing into the head have a passage to one for oil in the head drain back to the oil pan. That was my issue forty years ago. Neighbor was a mechanic with his own shop. He was helping and sourced all the parts. My F145 is 67 production. Was it a F135 gasket or later one just remember it was replaced free of charge. I also have a early FJ40 that has the same issue. When I bought it was told when the engine was rebuilt had the same problem and just gave up on it. When I drained the oil pan it was full of water on the bottom and oil on top. Much have used straight water. No sign of antifreeze.

 

[Steamer]

I pulled the rocker arm cover And no issues with the freeze plugs, and the oil looks clean and uncontaminated.

How bout these guys under the side cover.

 

[Steamer]

Also, with the side cover off and the system pressurized, a head gasket failure from a coolant hole to a push rod hole would be visible in there. I count 16 places where a gasket could fail allowing coolant could pass to a push rod hole.

Did you use an OEM head gasket? I recall a discussion about head gaskets here on Mud a while back comparing brands. Some had support rings around certain holes where other brands did not.

 

[sloanstavern]

Keep in mind the oil is only under pressure from the oil pump outlet until it reaches what it suppose to be lubricating. After that it just drains back into the sump (oil pan). Cooling system on the other hand is a closed system. With the thermostat close the engine the system has hgher pressure than the radiator. That can explain why coolant is clean and oil is contaminated. Why suggested head gasket issue. Getting that contaminated that quickly could and I could be head gasket passage problem. Coolant flowing into the head have a passage to one for oil in the head drain back to the oil pan. That was my issue forty years ago. Neighbor was a mechanic with his own shop. He was helping and sourced all the parts. My F145 is 67 production. Was it a F135 gasket or later one just remember it was replaced free of charge. I also have a early FJ40 that has the same issue. When I bought it was told when the engine was rebuilt had the same problem and just gave up on it. When I drained the oil pan it was full of water on the bottom and oil on top. Much have used straight water. No sign of antifreeze.

Great feedback thank you. I’ll continue the investigation and see where it leads

 

[sloanstavern]

How bout these guys under the side cover.

View attachment 2926286

I like where you’re going with that, I’m going to sneak a pipe cleaner down the PCV vent and see if I find antifreeze in it.

If inconclusive, I’ll open the lifter cover first, replacing that gasket will be much easier than a head gasket

 

[sloanstavern]

Also, with the side cover off and the system pressurized, a head gasket failure from a coolant hole to a push rod hole would be visible in there. I count 16 places where a gasket could fail allowing coolant could pass to a push rod hole.

Did you use an OEM head gasket? I recall a discussion about head gaskets here on Mud a while back comparing brands. Some had support rings around certain holes where other brands did not.

That’s a good question, time for my mea culpa.

I tore down the engine and rebuilt it early in this process 2 + years ago, when I still didn’t understand what a mixed bag this non-US market vehicle was I did not have a good source to find the correct vehicle exact parts. So there is a 50-50 chance that I may have the wrong head gasket on it. If memory serves it was OEM, but it may have been for the wrong model. I guess I should take some time and go through the bushel basket full of receipts and see if I can confirm the part number before I loosen any head bolts

 

[65swb45]

That’s a good question, time for my mea culpa.

I tore down the engine and rebuilt it early in this process 2 + years ago, when I still didn’t understand what a mixed bag this non-US market vehicle was I did not have a good source to find the correct vehicle exact parts. So there is a 50-50 chance that I may have the wrong head gasket on it. If memory serves it was OEM, but it may have been for the wrong model. I guess I should take some time and go through the bushel basket full of receipts and see if I can confirm the part number before I loosen any head bolts

Don’t beat yourself up about the HG. Even OE do not match the holes exactly. I remember talking with Marv Specter about this…back in the 80s

 

[sloanstavern]

Don’t beat yourself up about the HG. Even OE do not match the holes exactly. I remember talking with Marv Specter about this…back in the 80s

Thanks- just like doctors are supposed to follow the Hippocratic oath, and first do no harm here’s my plan for this morning

Open the lifter assembly cover . Look for evidence of coolant, and inspect the freeze plugs.
If they are in order then I will pressurize the cooling system and see if I’ve got air flowing down from the cylinder head into the lifter area ( not really a valley….). If none of this is conclusive then I think the next step is to take the head off, wish me luck

 

[sloanstavern]

Ya know how sometimes no matter how deep you dig you simply don’t find a definitive root cause to a problem? Well that was not the case today……..
Apparently the junior mechanic I had in charge neglected to install those four freeze plugs. That makes for a very efficient exchange of coolant to oil…….I’d fire him but he’s close to the owner

The good news is that’s an easy fix as a matter of fact at that stage of the project since there was some question about the freeze plug size I ordered a bunch of them and have plenty of stock. I’m convinced they weren’t installed because they would not fit down the drain plug and I would’ve found four blowouts in the tray.

So now the next question is how to Decon this engine. The rocker tray was free of any coolant at all and I mopped up any coolant that was in the lifter tray. The coolant in the radiator , block, and pump was pristine so I’m not too worried about that. The filters out and the oil pan has been drained.

My thought was to fill it with fresh oil and coolant, and run that for a brief period and check it for contamination if it’s looking relatively clean I’ll let it run multiple times in the engine through some heat up and cool down cycles maybe an hour or two total, and then drain it and repeat if you guys have any other suggestions I’d love to hear that

 

[Steamer]

Glad ya found it. It could've been worse. Don't be too hard on the junior mechanic. Mine makes lots of mistakes.