At a crossroads - Do I open this can of worms? (V8 Location/Clutch Replacement) (1 Viewer)

[RWBeringer4x4]

Ok folks, I need some opinions. I'm wrapping up my disc brake conversion, and staring into the abyss of my last MAJOR project to get this 40 relatively sound, mechanically speaking.

As evidenced at the beginning of this video, my throw-out bearing is about to bite it:



My truck is running what I believe to be an old lakewood scattershield conversion, between a 283 SBC amd the stock 4-speed transmission. This conversion was APPARENTLY done by Go-Ten manufacturing, in California, many years ago. There's still a sticker on the door-frame. If they did, and it hasn't been modified since, it is no surprise that they are out of business... My plan is to replace it with the AA bellhousing setup, since I have NO idea what clutch/flywheel/T/O bearing combination is running inside the scattershield. I'll just swap the whole thing for a known entity (the AA parts).

The issue is, the engine is, in my Opinion, WAY too far forward in the bay.

Everything I've read says that the "sweet spot" for a V8 conversion to mount is about 19.5 inches from the front frame rail. Mine is only about 15.5-16 inches.

About 8.5-9 inches from rib on the shock mount to the center of the engine mount:

At the rear, I'm at about 6.5 to 7 inches from the firewall at the passenger side head:

The radiator, as far as I can tell, is mounted in the stock location. The fan (shroudless) is only about 1/2 inch from the radiator.

There is a small fan spacer, but I don't think I could go much shorter to add radiator clearance due to the bolt on the power steering pump pulley:

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

This, in turn, creates a number of issues, all of which annoy me a great deal!

For one, it pulls the transmission forward all the way up to the firewall:

This results in some MASSIVE dog legs to both the transfercase and transmission shifters inside the cab. The transmission tunnel has been heavily "modified" to accommodate. Ironically, this setup clears the heater, but it makes for one HELL of a shift throw:

I couldn't get a good measurement of the side-to-side location, but it must be pretty heavily skewed driver's side, as my saginaw steering collumn just BARELY clears the exhaust manifold:

So my question is this:

In order to replace the clutch and bellhousing, the transmission and transfer case are going to have to come out. With half the driveline out, this would seem to be an opportune time to yank EVERYTHING, and move it aft about 6 inches. That said, this opens up a giant can of worms (exhaust, driveshafts, etc.). My question to those of you who have done it: Is it worth it? At this point, I don't have a garage - I'd have to knock this out next summer with the truck sitting in somebody's driveway...A house with a garage is down the road, but probably not for another year or two...

Something tells me this is more than a "shade tree, weekend/summer" project, but another part of me thinks it might be do-able...Mostly just looking for opinions.

Thanks!

 

[nitroid13]

Wow that's some pro mods!
And to think some one paid for that to be done

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Haha well, who's the bigger sucker- the guy who paid for the mods, or the guy who bought the truck knowing it was a basket case?

 

[subzali]

Depends on the deal you got on said basket case

For me, I would put together what you have torn apart and drive it through the winter, saving up and accumulating parts. Then fix it next summer, but have a good solid plan for what you want. Look at other rigs in your area that have been done right. If you don't have a garage I would consider farming it out to a welder that you get to know between now and then. Yikes that's brutal, but you haven't really enjoyed the truck yet, I think it's important to get a little bit in before taking it down again.


...via IH8MUD app

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Depends on the deal you got on said basket case

For me, I would put together what you have torn apart and drive it through the winter, saving up and accumulating parts. Then fix it next summer, but have a good solid plan for what you want. Look at other rigs in your area that have been done right. If you don't have a garage I would consider farming it out to a welder that you get to know between now and then. Yikes that's brutal, but you haven't really enjoyed the truck yet, I think it's important to get a little bit in before taking it down again.


...via IH8MUD app

Subzali - Trust me, I paid about what it's worth...

I think the plan is, right now, something along the lines of what you've said. I won't be driving it in the winter (East Coast/Salt) but I may drive it around until the throwout bearing finally gives out. In the meantime, I'll be doing as you said, collecting money to dump into this when the time comes. I have a couple welder buddies who may/may not be able to help me out. Right now I'm more just trying to formulate a gameplan, and get an idea of where this engine belongs in the bay...

The objective is to do this as cheaply as possible, eventually, while still doing it right. This means sticking to the V8 and stock 4-speed (although I would LOVE a 3FE) and re-using as many other parts as I can.

In terms of parts, I'll need:

*The whole AA set-up (most likely including mounts, unless I build my own)
*Most likely new exhaust
*Driveshafts modified
*Bottom Engine seals/all transmission seals
*Possibly a transmission, depending on what the input shaft looks like when I get in there...

No small order...and I'm sure that's the short list...

What I'm really interested in right now is the V8 locations - is 19.5 inches form the front crossmember still the "best average" for this setup?

I'd also like to see how folks cleared the heater. I'm thinking if I push the engine back 4 inches, then swap to a FJ60 top plate, that should push the tower back a solid 6-7 inches, which MIGHT put it just in front of the heater...

 

[bikersmurf]

1) x2 on waiting for summer.
2) go for it.
3) I figured it out with an AA & a Downey guide, but no pictures or people to ask for help... At 20 years of age.

I'll add a link to a thread with pics and measurements of my setup. 20 years and counting on this conversion & the same clutch.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/sbc-swap-with-manual-steering.448066/page-2

Comparing pics, it looks like you may only need to move it back about 3". 6" would put your block too close to the firewall which leads to heat problems.

 

[shawnfj40]

If it were me I and I were in your situation I would use a shorter water pump and the pulley to match. Then put your new throwout bearing in and drive it.

 

[JohnnyC]

Wow that shifter is wankey

This is a summer thing for sure...

What's the drive shaft look like?

... You can fit an overdrive in there and not worry about the drive shaft being short with everything that foward... Just thinking if the positive

 

[TCinVA]

I think you have a good plan. As long as you're redoing the drivetrain, you might as well put the engine where it needs to be. Mine is as far back to the firewall as can be with an HEI distributor. Getting a shop to change drive shaft lengths is relatively cheap and easy in the overall scheme of things. If you are in southern Maryland, you should hit up the Capitol Land Cruiser club, a lot of good guys with 40's in that group you could talk to.

 

[Downey]

Yep, engine is way too far forward, send snail mail address and I'll send freebie Downey V8 installation instruction manual that will tell you exactly where to put the engine. You don't need whole new front motor mounts, I have just the weld-on frame brackets you need to work with the engine brackets and cushions you already have. The problem with your scatter shield is they were never made to machine align the tranny to the engine, so T.O. bearing wear and OIL LEAKS!!!!! I have a Downey 4 speed bellhousing adapter at the moment if interested. PM me if you need any other info ASAP.

 

[bikersmurf]

19 years and counting on a Downey kit... No complaints.

 

[subzali]

Yep, engine is way too far forward, send snail mail address and I'll send freebie Downey V8 installation instruction manual that will tell you exactly where to put the engine. You don't need whole new front motor mounts, I have just the weld-on frame brackets you need to work with the engine brackets and cushions you already have. The problem with your scatter shield is they were never made to machine align the tranny to the engine, so T.O. bearing wear and OIL LEAKS!!!!! I have a Downey 4 speed bellhousing adapter at the moment if interested. PM me if you need any other info ASAP.

That's a great offer!


...via IH8MUD app

 

[JohnnyC]

That's a great offer!


...via IH8MUD app

X2

 

[madoc1]

that sounds like a deal I have the aa kit in mine i think. it takes a shortened drive shaft in the rear. I like the idea of waiting till spring and gathering info. if you can use your f in law for a bit, it is not hard to pull the tranny and put in a new throw out.. bet is a standard chevy one. maybe a 2 six pack job. as for the exhaust, if you use corvette style manifolds, there is a nice standard down pipe that crosses over under the engine a exits out under the drivers side. misses the transfer case. made by walker I think. I can look up the #.

jim

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Wow, thank you all for the input!

1) x2 on waiting for summer.
2) go for it.
3) I figured it out with an AA & a Downey guide, but no pictures or people to ask for help... At 20 years of age.

I'll add a link to a thread with pics and measurements of my setup. 20 years and counting on this conversion & the same clutch.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/sbc-swap-with-manual-steering.448066/page-2

Comparing pics, it looks like you may only need to move it back about 3". 6" would put your block too close to the firewall which leads to heat problems.

I know I can't push it too far back in the bay, due to the cooling/airflow issues - although I think @Cdaniel's build was pretty far back in the bay.

Question: in my 75, the front crossmember has a section of metal welded to the back of it (rad support maybe?) it's curved where it meets the frame rail. Are you guys measuring from this, or from the straight weld to the cross member itself?

If it were me I and I were in your situation I would use a shorter water pump and the pulley to match. Then put your new throwout bearing in and drive it.

I would, but as Downey mentioned I think my throw-out bearing issue is really a bell-housing issue, so replacing the bearing would just result in another early bearing failure. The end goal is a sorted, reliable truck, so this may be a shortcut I can't afford - but trust me, I've thought about it!

Wow that shifter is wankey

This is a summer thing for sure...

What's the drive shaft look like?

... You can fit an overdrive in there and not worry about the drive shaft being short with everything that foward... Just thinking if the positive

Front driveshaft is short, rear is pretty long, haven't measured either...that said they both appear to be length-modified versions of the stock 40 driveshaft.

I think you have a good plan. As long as you're redoing the drivetrain, you might as well put the engine where it needs to be. Mine is as far back to the firewall as can be with an HEI distributor. Getting a shop to change drive shaft lengths is relatively cheap and easy in the overall scheme of things. If you are in southern Maryland, you should hit up the Capitol Land Cruiser club, a lot of good guys with 40's in that group you could talk to.

Have pictures, by chance? I believe my truck has been converted over to HEI so this may be the limiting factor.

I'm in northern MD, but I'm familiar with the capital city land cruiser club. Stumpalama has been a huge resource (parts/advice) on my brake/knuckle conversion.

Yep, engine is way too far forward, send snail mail address and I'll send freebie Downey V8 installation instruction manual that will tell you exactly where to put the engine. You don't need whole new front motor mounts, I have just the weld-on frame brackets you need to work with the engine brackets and cushions you already have. The problem with your scatter shield is they were never made to machine align the tranny to the engine, so T.O. bearing wear and OIL LEAKS!!!!! I have a Downey 4 speed bellhousing adapter at the moment if interested. PM me if you need any other info ASAP.

@Downey -

I'd definitely be interested in the freebie instruction manual, might be interested in the bellhousing as well. I'll admit I'm not as familiar with your setup (clutch components, etc.) I'll shoot you a PM to discuss.

I'm well aware of the scattershield alignment issues, which is why I am keen on getting rid of it! I have a feeling my oil leaks are a result of that as well.

that sounds like a deal I have the aa kit in mine i think. it takes a shortened drive shaft in the rear. I like the idea of waiting till spring and gathering info. if you can use your f in law for a bit, it is not hard to pull the tranny and put in a new throw out.. bet is a standard chevy one. maybe a 2 six pack job. as for the exhaust, if you use corvette style manifolds, there is a nice standard down pipe that crosses over under the engine a exits out under the drivers side. misses the transfer case. made by walker I think. I can look up the #.

jim

I'm currently running rams horns and plan to keep it that way - I like the low clearance. I'll look into those pipes. To be honest I've never even looked at my own exhaust to see how it's routed. My objective long term is to just have it up and out of the way.

 

[Downey]

Normal Chevota radiator location would be rearward and downward. Rearward because the rad will be too far in front of the fan blade. Downward because the fan blade center will be well below the rad center, and even possibly cutting through the path of the lower rad hose. Typically bottom of rad mounting housing would be close to bottom of front crossmember rather than on top of it. Engine position wise, guys use to cram the engine back into the firewall trying to save drive shaft modifying bucks (they merely swapped front to rear), but then there was no air behind the engine and those rigs ran 240 degrees all day long. Heat radiated out of the back of the engine, hit the firewall, then bounced right back into the engine. Many problems with the engine too far forward, I won't even go into that.

 

[brooklyn]

Might have some parts you need as I just pulled a V283 from my 67'Fj40. The engine was shot, but had a new clutch kit, new NOS SM420, and 3spd transfer engine had an avenger carb/truck, not sure what adapter was used, but the engine was fit nicely in the engine bay. I am putting an F2 engine in the truck with a split case, so everything is available - drive shafts, rear cross member. It all in Connecticut.

 

[TCinVA]

I'll post a few pictures today.

 

[sometlc]

I would redo it. You have pretty much everything you need already. I went back as far as I could go due to having it mated to a sm420 so I could get it past the heater. I installed it about 1" towards the passenger side to allow for steering clearance. The slope of the set up should be about 3º from front to back to a max of 5º. I also put it as low as I could for good COG. I have the motor out at this time but can snap some pics if you want.