1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Article in the NY Times

Discussion in 'Chit-Chat' started by alvarorb, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. alvarorb

    alvarorb Color Geek in Charge

    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    27
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2003
    Location:
    Sacramento, California
    Front page article in the NY Times today

    It seems that people who got the hybrid cars are getting about the same gas millage as the people that bought similar cars with gas engines. They enjoy the nice acceleration that these vechicles provide, but loose out on the gas millage savings by driving them hard. However, they do get to enjoy the tax credit that the goverment is issuing for people who buy these "Green" vehicles.

    What do you think?

    <http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/automobiles/17hybrid.html&OP=11862698Q2FQ7DsQ3AQ27Q7DoQ2BQ5CewQ2BQ2B_bQ7DbQ5BQ5BYQ7DQ5B4Q7Dg4Q7DPJ_Q2BVQ2BQ27aIQ3AeQ7Dg4Q7CQ3CQ27waoQ5EQ7C_VI>

    Regards

    Alvaro
     
  2. Jan-78FJ40

    Jan-78FJ40

    Messages:
    3,796
    Likes Received:
    476
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    That's not exactly what the article said.
    In a brief summary, it said that there are two kinds of hybrids on the s
    market: soem that give big fuel savings, and some that are introduced to make people like hybrids, and get the same gas mileage, but have more power. This is done to overcome the stigma of the 'weak' hybrid.

    I think it is BS, a hybrid should be attractive for the fuel savings, not for the power...
    Jan
     
  3. NorCalDoug

    NorCalDoug problems solved daily...

    Messages:
    6,289
    Likes Received:
    110
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2003
    Location:
    uhhhh...duh...Northern CA
    Fixed the link for you ;)
    Click here for the article

    I think hybrids are a good step in the right direction -- whether it be for overall fuel savings or for additional power without the need to use additional fuel. What I didn't like -- as was mentioned in the article -- was the apple/oranges comparisons when they spoke of the Accord. It's an unfair comparison to rate the V6 hybrid against the 4 banger. Those buying the 4 banger are not the same as those buying the v6 hybrid. They have different needs and resources. The criticisms were unfound, IMO.

    One thing that people don't seem to mention, however, is what are people going to do at the end of the batteries' life? That's a whole lot of "hazardous waste" to contend with.
     
  4. gulp3000

    gulp3000

    Messages:
    569
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Location:
    Colorado
    We have a 4 banger Accord and it's plenty fast. Everyone is surprised that it's the 4 cyl after they ride in or drive it.
     
  5. Bluto

    Bluto

    Messages:
    1,104
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Location:
    N. LA Co. CA
    Exactly. If its one thing, its another. :doh:

    Maybe we can get a hold of Mr. Spock and Scotty and get some ideas on antimatter energy. If it "matters". :D
     
  6. NorCalDoug

    NorCalDoug problems solved daily...

    Messages:
    6,289
    Likes Received:
    110
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2003
    Location:
    uhhhh...duh...Northern CA
    To hell with antimatter energy...get someone to build a Heisenberg compensator and we'll just "beam" over to wherever we need to go. :D



    OMG -- I'm a Star Trek geek :crybaby:
     
  7. FirstToy

    FirstToy

    Messages:
    4,432
    Likes Received:
    71
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Location:
    Socal
    I agree w/ this. The problem is combustion engines have gotten so advanced, they are extremely efficient. Production combustion engines can achieve PZEV, ULEV 2 while maintaining similar performance.
    Hybrids are just beginning to enter the mainstream so the tech is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Still, it's impressive that this new tech is so competitive w/ 100 yrs of combustion engine R&D.

    Batteries are a great point- much more toxic and what the heck are we going to do w/ all of them??
     
  8. Cruiserdrew

    Cruiserdrew On the way there SILVER Star

    Messages:
    14,871
    Likes Received:
    3,481
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2003
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    My own Luddite bias is that Hybrid technology is needlessly complex. A low tech diesel whould achieve better mileage, run for 300k miles, and not have any scheduled battery replacements. It might be slower.

    A high tech diesel would achieve much better mileage, equivalent emissions, decent performance and still be far simpler to own and maintain. That's what I want.

    If you are a car flipper and buy a new ride every 3 years, hybrids *might* make some sense. But if you are like me, and keep a vehicle for years, then the economics of hybrid ownership are not so clear cut.

    I wish Toyota had gone VWs direction of high effeciency diesel power in passenger cars. If they had, I would be driving one soon. For now, I'll keep Cruising, and riding my bike. That's a better "hybrid".
     
  9. FirstToy

    FirstToy

    Messages:
    4,432
    Likes Received:
    71
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Location:
    Socal
    oh yeah, like the Jetta TDi. That makes alot of sense I agree. The longevity of diesel makes it doubly attractive as well.
     
  10. roscoFJ73

    roscoFJ73

    Messages:
    14,763
    Media:
    3
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,266
    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2003
    Location:
    Perth Western Australia
    The batteries are expected to last 8-10 years and the companies that make hybrid cars will take the old batteries away for recycling .

    The amount of nickel in them makes it very viable.
     
  11. NorCalDoug

    NorCalDoug problems solved daily...

    Messages:
    6,289
    Likes Received:
    110
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2003
    Location:
    uhhhh...duh...Northern CA
    Maybe in OZ, but companies in the US generally don't do anything unless they're forced to by law.

    And...once they take the batteries away, I suspect the vehicle owner would be responsible for acquring new batteries...
    That can't be an inexpensive proposition.
     
  12. FirstToy

    FirstToy

    Messages:
    4,432
    Likes Received:
    71
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Location:
    Socal
    I think the 8-10 yr cycle is misleading b/c batteries will not recharge 100% every cycle. At the 8 -10 yr mark, what is the capacity of the battery? Is the max. capacity now 20-30% of a new battery?

    Most of all the battery thing concerns me b/c it may turn out to be enviromentally one step forward, 2 steps back. As in, you save a bit of petrol now but 10-20 yrs down the line we have huge toxic dumps of lead and toxic chemicals to contend with.

    Maybe I'm not up to date on battery tech, so I'm just throwing this out there...

    I do like hybrid performance tho. 100% torque instantly is a good thing :)
     
  13. 89GASHOG

    89GASHOG

    Messages:
    3,526
    Likes Received:
    583
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Location:
    The Last Frontier
    I ran into a guy last year who has one of the hybrid Ford Escapes. His gas mileage was dissapointing-somewhere in the low 20's. Hybrids, biodiesels and hydrogen powered engines all have a good future, I think. Here's what the industry has to say about hybrid battery packs.


    Question: How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

    The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker.

    Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.

    There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
     
  14. FirstToy

    FirstToy

    Messages:
    4,432
    Likes Received:
    71
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2003
    Location:
    Socal
    Good stuff Bret, really cool tech then.

    fyi, I learned that the hybrid Ford uses is (wait for it)..... licensed from Toyota patented technology.
     
  15. BNC

    BNC

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Location:
    Texas
    I'm waiting to see how hybrids fair against the new diesels that will be coming along with the low sulfur fuel.

    It will be interesting to see if it turns into a competition of gas/elec vs diesel or combine them for a diesel/elec hybrid. Now that would get some serious mileage.
     
  16. dieseldog

    dieseldog She idles just fine . . .

    Messages:
    1,873
    Likes Received:
    4,176
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Location:
    Houston & BFE
    One of the nice things about NiMH batteries is that they don't suffer from hysterisis losses or "memory" like NiCad batteries do.

    Frankly I think the combination of diesel/electric is the way to go with a hybrid. The best of both worlds IMHO.