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All LS1/5.3/6.0 conversions or NV4500/4L80E please enter!

Discussion in '60-Series Wagons' started by gnx7, Jul 6, 2005.

  1. gnx7

    gnx7

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    I'm a newbie on this board but not new to wrenching. Done 2 Buick Grand National (Turbo V6) conversions into '87 Mazda RX-7's and an LS1 into my current '93 RX-7 daily driver.

    I'm looking to install a '99 LS1 in my '84 FJ60 with 4L80E mainly for more power and better freeway fuel economy plus to have the ability to tow a car/boat trailer. I have seen a few Cruisers on here with LSx based conversions and either 4L60E/4L80E/NV4500 transmissions.

    A few questions for you guys:
    Did you make or buy your engine/trans mounts? Can you post some pics?

    Any transmission or firewall mods needed to fit the 4L80E?

    Did you use the Advanced Adapters (AA) adapter to mate it to the stock FJ60 transfer case? Is this sufficient and are the stock driveshafts/diffs up to the task?

    Will the stock radiator work? Did you use an aftermarket eFan or not?

    How did you run the fuel system feed/return lines? Stock fuel tank?

    What type of mileage are you getting on the highway? What gears/tires do you have?

    Any pitfalls hurdles I should look out for?



    Sorry for all the questions... just planning out my future conversion.

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
  2. VETTE60

    VETTE60

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    -i run the vette motor and the nv4500.
    -A/A motor mounts
    -A/A t-case adapter
    -no firewall mods, but moved the hole in the hump for the shifters
    -stock rad worked in my 40 with a black magic electric fan, but this time i went with the summit aluminum radiator (universal, about $175)
    -stock fuel tank used stock return, but new feed due to higher pressure, but if you can couple stock feed line with pressure line than it is good
    -driveshafts are solid, but had to lengthen/shorten. no big deal
    -gettin about 16-18 mpg double what my tired 2F was gettin
    -4.88 gears arb's and 35's


    good luck :beer:
     
  3. gnx7

    gnx7

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    That sounds like a very cool setup. What year Vette motor? Any mods to it?

    How do you like the NV4500 for normal on road driving?

    I may have to roll up to check out your truck. If you are ever in SF please shoot me an email: gnx7@hotmail.com

    I read about a Vortech '96 motor swapped into Jack Rice's FJ40 and the writeup mentioned the Vortec weighing 200 lbs. less than the 2F! http://medusa.ih8mud.com/cruiser/Vortec.html

    Being that the Vortech is an iron block and I imagine iron heads as well..... the all aluminum LS1 should weigh easily another 100lbs less. The LS1 aluminum block is over 70lbs less than its iron block LSx series brother found in the trucks (4.8/5.3/6.0).

    I looked into a Cummins turbo 6BT engine swap just to check it out and saw it weighed 905lbs without clutch, flywheel or accessories!!!! Holy crap that is portly.... but 350ft/lbs+ at 2,000rpm is a nice tradeoff.

    Does anyone know the weight of the 2F with accessories etc? I'm very curious.

    The LS1 with all accessories/computer/wiring harness/portly stock cast iron manifolds weighs 480lbs. The manifolds weigh an easy 15-20lbs each.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2005
  4. FL cruiser

    FL cruiser

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    Here is a pic or two of my home made NV4500 crossmember & motor mounts:

    http://home.earthlink.net/~joemama1/LC.html

    The NV4500 is a wide ratio tranny. The shift points won't give you that sports car feel. First gear is low like a granny gear, so I never use it. Good tall 27% OD though. I like it .

    The stock radiator cools my diesel well in the Florida heat. It shouldn't be a concern for you. I had to make mods to the shroud to make the opening accomodate a GM 7 blade fan.
     
  5. gnx7

    gnx7

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    FL- That is a very cool swap and the $75 6.2 Diesel you scored is even cooler. I'm going to price out what it costs to do a NV4500 vs. 4L80E swap. I really would like to keep it a manual transmission.

    2nd gear in the NV4500 is still deeper than 1st in the 4L80E... and overdrive is even more fuel economy friendly if only by a little. Decisions....

    4L80E: 1st 2.48, 2nd 1.48, 3rd 1 to1, 4th .75

    NV4500:
    GM 93-94 95/up GM; 93/up Dodge
    First Gear 6.34 5.61
    Second Gear 3.44 3.04
    Third Gear 1.71 1.67
    Fourth Gear 1.00 1.00
    Fifth Gear 0.73 0.73
    Reverse 6.34 5.61



    Specifications
    Dry weight: 195 lbs.
    Oil capacity: 1 gallon
    Rated GVW: 14,500 lbs.
    Case material: cast iron
    Synchronizers: Carbon fiber composite
    Main/Counter shaft bearings: Timken tapered roller


    Dimensions
    NV4500 GM (6.34) GM (5.61) Dodge Dodge HD
    Main case 12.375" 12.375" 12.375" 12.375"
    4WD Adapter Housing 8.125 8.125 6.25 6.25
    2WD Tailhousing 6" Tailhousing 6" Tailhousing 13" Tailhousing 13" Tailhousing
    Yoke Fixed Yoke Fixed Yoke 30 spl Slip yoke 31 spl Slip yoke
    Input shaft stickout 6.625 6.625 7.625 7.625
    Input shaft spline 1.125" 10spl 1.125" 10spl 1.125" 10spl 1.250" 10spl
    Pilot Dia .590" .590" .750" .750"

    http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv4500.htm#NV4500: General Information:
     
  6. FL cruiser

    FL cruiser

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    NV4500 info

    I see you have visited High Impact site. I bought my NV4500 and some other parts from him. Got good quick delivery and a decent price.

    As you probably finding out, different conversion parts are used depending if you use the Chevy or Dodge version of the NV4500.

    To save some typing, I'm attaching some NV4500 info from another post.
    Some of it you probably already know, but here it is:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    The 93 up Dodge version and 95 up GM version shift smoother than the earlier years.
    But neither of these will bolt up to a normal Chevy bell housing.

    Using the Dodge tranny: The adapter from the tranny to transfer case costs around $550.
    The adapter to mate the front of the tranny to the most common Chevy bell housings is almost $300.

    You can use a 96 up Chevy truck bell housing so you wouldn't have to buy the $300 front adapter. But that bell housing uses an internal slave cyl, and there's no way to mount an external one.

    The Dodge version of the NV4500 has a 1" longer input shaft than the Chevy version. With the 1" adapter spacer at the front it works fine with the earlier most common Chevy bell housings provided you buy the $300 AA front adapter. And you can mount a slave cylinder as well.

    I happened to use the Chevy version NV4500, a 96 up Chevy truck bell housing made for the NV4500 and a stock Chevy clutch ($140). But had to use an internal slave though.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The big disadvantage to internal slave is, if it goes bad, you must remove the transmission to change it. This is enough to scare most people.
    I don't know how these internal slaves hold up to repeated river crossings.
    At least not yet.

    An advantage is there are no brackets to buy, special bell housings etc.
    A little less guess work and trial & error on linkages, figuring release arm lengths, etc.
    Plus you don't need to buy an AA adapter plate for the bell housing.

    If you use a 96 up Chevy truck bell housing there will be a mount on the inside for the internal slave. Any year flywheel will work. I was told any Chevy 73 up clutch will work, but was also told to use a 96 up Chevy clutch because it has more release for shorter amount of pedal travel. I played it safe and got the newer clutch. A 12" clutch fit fine. If a 12" is big enough for a 2 ton truck, it's hard core heavy duty for a Land Cruiser.

    I didn't like the idea of GM's plastic master cyl. I used a Wilwood 3/4" bore. Same bore as stock Toyota, but extra travel for increased fluid requirements. I had to have a custom hydraulic line made up. The GM clutch was cheap , as was the Wilwood master at $55. It acheives the same quick throw/release results for a lot less $$ than the centerforce clutch

    I was amazed. It worked perfect the first time I tried it, no adjustments neccesary, and very light pedal pressure even for a heavy duty 12" clutch.
    So far no regrets.
     
  7. dieselcruiserhead

    dieselcruiserhead

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    You will have trouble finding a GM spec NV4500 for what it's worth unless that link you posted can get it. 90% of them seem to be 5.61 first gear/later gears. It might shift better than the Dodge NV4500 I don't know but for me with 35's and 4.10's, I still start in second with the Dodge NV4500. It is a weird shifting tranny because of the large gaps, like a 3 speed with an overdrive and underdrive, even the Dodge version (or at least how I have it geared). I drove a Dodge version with 33's and 3.73 (stock FJ60) axle gears and it actually shifted very smooth. Over could probably get well over 100 easily with it as well, versus about 90 for me with the 4.10's and the diesel that does not like to go much above 2300 RPMs. You might also want to look into the Toyota H55F 5 Speed transmission that should also hold up to a LS1 pretty well as long as you treat it with a little respect. Difference here is it still has a reasonable low but is a very smooth shifting transmission, and the gear points don't feel weird at all. 17% overdrive though but still very decent. You can also play around with the calulators to find ideal cruising speed. For a V8, not sure, 2500 to 3000 RPMS at about 75 mph? Use the actual spec tire dimension (what they advertise) to figure out RPM because even though they measure 32" for a 33" etc etc, the spec the publish is the actual spinning diameter of the tire. Also stock 6BT is 400 ft/lbs at I believe 1800 RPMs, and that is for the earliest/weakest models. Cruiser diffs/axles are surpizingly heavy duty and will be fine even with the LS1 unless you are running bigger than 35's or really throttle it hard off road regularly then you might pop something. Stock 2F weighs about 800 lbs. Same as my 4BT that is about 130hp/350 ft/lbs lightly turned up and with an intercooler. Makes my SOA fly up any hill I point it at at 80 mpg even at 8000 ft here. Feels like a V8 when under boost, but with even more low end grunt than the 2F, so nice. I run a somewhat fast low range compared to all the crawlers but keep up because the truck will literally idle over anything. Before I installed hydroboost brakes it would even idle through the brakes... Also the Toyota FJ60 split case is also very strong and the adapter should hold up fine for most stuff you will put it through. If you intend to wheel it, I think it's worth it to get gearing/lockers/lift at the same time when you do the engine swap. That is what I did, and skipped all the BS and years of upgrades and did it all in one shot...
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2005
  8. candograge

    candograge

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    Hi i dont reply that often but i have done the fuelinjected 350 tbi and it is mated to a 4l80e and stock transfercase .Now that being said when you order the adpter (i got mine from AA) they will tell you some modifcations to case are needed before doing this i would assemble everything and then call high line drive angel and tell him you want a drive shaft yoke for an toyota mini truck this will allow you to get rid of the cv joint and will this u join setup allows a greater angel somthing like 37 degres
    there for much less triming if any to pan and case . now on to the computer issues of the trans if you wish to retain the computer check out COMPUSHIFT ask for mike dam good guy to deal with as he got me up and rolling with loads of good tech .or you can search google for the quadzilla trans i went with Compushift as it gives access to the computer thought a controll box wich allows you to set wheel size gears upshift and a lot more .will also give rpm tps mph and tcc controll .any questions feel free to call me 215 760 3363 my name is aaron im one of the two here at candograge thank you for listening
     
  9. candograge

    candograge

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    oh just thought i should mention i do like the drivablity of a 4l80e as i have two 94 one ton chevy truck that both have 4l80e and if you like to wheel over rocky terain an aotumatic is nice no leg fatuige due to stronger clutch !
     
  10. candograge

    candograge

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    oh just thought i should mention i do like the drivablity of a 4l80e as i have two 94 one ton chevy truck that both have 4l80e and if you like to wheel over rocky terain an aotumatic is nice no leg fatuige due to stronger clutch !
     
  11. gnx7

    gnx7

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    FL and Diesel- I have my feelers out for a Chevy NV4500 and the parts needed for the conversion. I think it would be a great setup for towing and wheelin'. The 3speed aspect is no big deal either with all that torque I'm planning on backing it up with. The overdrive ratio is great.... better than the current 1:1.

    The 4BT sounds like a cool little diesel. I assume these came in some of the Scouts also? I've seen one of those with one which was rare.

    Thanks for the tip on getting rid of the "CV" joint... I'll look into it when the time comes. I'm leaning away from the 4L80E simply because of the poor 1st gear for towing/wheeling and all the piggy back controllers you need. I know they are uber strong even in stock form and make the truck a no brainer for city driving.... but when towing a load or going off trail... I think I want different gearing.

    The stock 2F is 800lbs.... :eek: yowza. Maybe it is possible to get this truck closer to 4,000lbs with an LS1. It would really move!
     
  12. candograge

    candograge

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    if you wahttp://www.transmissioncenter.net/4L80E.htmnt a 4l80e try this link they can build it to suit with no computer.
     
  13. zebrabeefj40

    zebrabeefj40

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    I've found the 4L80e a great trans to tow with. Got one stock in a '93 GMC 3500 Vandura cube van, 10K GVW, tired 5.7 TBI motor, 4.11 dually rear. I've loaded it up then hooked a Cruiser to the back and headed across the the mountains of PA. May not be the same deal as what you have planned but that's how it works for me.

    The lack of a low gear is made up for with the torque multiplication of the torque convertor. The first gear is effectively doubled at low speeds. The trade-off is extra heat generated from slippage. A properly sized cooler will take care of that... Just comparing specs on paper doesn't always tell the whole story.

    HTH,
    Nick Jennings
     
  14. VETTE60

    VETTE60

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    sorry, been gone for a few days. i got my gm nv4500 with 6.34 1st gear set from gear tech heavy duty www.geartechhd.com rebuilt free shipping no tax, no core charge for $1950. and it was built and sent within a few weeks. that included the bell housing and shifter. it drives well at speed, and i just got back from the carson river run, and my tranny with split case and 4.88's crawls beautiully. i did fab up my own cross member, but you goota do that anyway. the nicest part was not having to even tap my brakes while going down the steepest of sections. you dont get that with an auto asw good as the manual, un less you have a lock-up torque converter.
     
  15. candograge

    candograge

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    ok im am running 83 fj 60 with 350 4l80e with advanced adpters adapter thier trans mount and cross bar. as for the the cpu for the trans i use HGM compushift stand alone controller you can get a remote controll box which i mounted in my dash in place of my tack. this was a little $$$ but well worth it as you can conhttp://www.compushift.com/compushift.htmtroll just about all function with it .
     
  16. candograge

    candograge

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    my avitaar is me with my cruiser
     
  17. Tinker

    Tinker

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    My 4L60E is "built" a little - asked the rebuilder what he thought about B&M kits & he said they're OK but you can do better for less with higher-quality parts (he specializes in drag-race trannies). The abrupt shift of the B&M isn't good for the trans, nor is the stock "hydramatic" slushy change of the stock. Mine changes quickly & firmly.

    It depends on what you're towing to determine whether an auto or manual is better. For heavier loads, auto is better. And lots of serious rock-crawlers wouldn't have anything else. Hard to miss a shift & the torque multiplication is useful.

    Vortec 5.7 & 4L60E weigh about same as 2F & 4sp. If you do go auto, get the 2WD version or you'll have to convert it. 4L80E may be the setup for heavy towing/wheeling, but you'll lose some mileage. I get 15-17 city/highway at 6-7,000' with 4.10s & 33x10.50s, if I stay out of it.
     
  18. Waggoner5

    Waggoner5 SILVER Star

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    Mark, I have ran the 4L80E in my 62 behind an LT1 and although its a great transmission, its really big and heavy compared to the 700R4 and its brother the 4L60E. These trannys have the 3.06 first gear and allow a lot more front driveshaft clearance. You still cannot run your existing CV shaft but a mini truck or GM conversion CV will fit with minor "relieving" of the tranny pan.
    The 4L80E will not have any firewall clearance issues but your front driveshaft will not work in any way with the 15-1701 AA kit. The pan and pan rail will have to be cut almost completely off to run a CV style shaft. If they would have increased the length on the adapter by 2 inches, it would work. I would not go 4L80E for any reason. I did because of the 502 conversion, but would probably go a different route if I had to do it again. The 4L80E also still has temp issues in my tuck. It does not overheat but it does run way hotter than I would want. I am running 3 coolers including the radiator, and have still seen temps of 240 when crawling for a long time.
    When it comes down to it, the 4500 is the way to go if you want a stick, but if you want auto, the beafed up 700-4L60 is the tranny of choice for sure. If you end up going LS1, I would opt for the matching 4L60E with factory ECM controlling both. I have driven many converted trucks with this set up and they work great without issue.
    Gary
     
  19. gnx7

    gnx7

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    Gary,

    I'll most likely end up putting the TH700R4/AA kit up for sale I got from you and run the matching 4L60E. I agree with keeping the matching transmission vs. taking 2 steps back technology wise. This will be mainly an adventure truck and not a rock crawler. 90% highway and 10% off road.