Air to air intercooler, water methanol injection OR both?

[1973Guppie]

96 fzj80 supercharged engine, already done the HG and rebuilt the top end. Truck runs great.

I have an air to air intercooler sitting on the shelf as well as the 2.8 pulley boys smaller pulley. I don't plan to change the tune on the truck whatsoever (not sure if that is even possible anyhow).

I am wondering if I should do BOTH the water to methanol injection with the air to air intercooler OR stick to one or the other? Is having BOTH overkill for not running a huge amount of boost? I am considering the MAF kit from snow performance. I do live in southern california so intake temps are a consideration. I don't have any high temp issues so far. Is a dual setup like this really only for guys running much higher psi boost?

I am also somewhat on the fence about installing the air to air intercooler as it is alot of work, ie: cutting the hood, etc. Plus all this stuff will have to come off in CA when I go to smog the truck, which is a PIA. The snow performance unit would be an easy thing to pull quickly before smog. Plus, from what I read the air to air intercooler actually drops the boost a few psi. I am thinking if I leave the A to A intercooler off and use the smaller pulley with the methanol injection I would end up with more power in the end?

not considering any other variations on the above, ie: turbos, water intercoolers, etc.

I am new to the whole supercharging, methanol, boost world so please bear with me. I appreciate any advice on what you think the best solution would be?

thanks,

Noah

 

[Robb235]

Excuse my ignorance with the supercharger, but how would you be able to intercool the air after it's been compressed by the SC? There's no boost in the intake tract like you would have with a turbocharger, post-compressor. Since the supercharger sits directly on top of the motor, I'm curious as to how you would get the compressed air out to the intercooler, and then back to the lower intake manifold?

 

[wearsabrowncoat]

Do you have Nick's kit?

Why would it have to come off in California?

 

[scottryana]

With the TRD supercharger it does not sit directly on top of the motor there is a tube out of the SC to the throttle body.

Excuse my ignorance with the supercharger, but how would you be able to intercool the air after it's been compressed by the SC? There's no boost in the intake tract like you would have with a turbocharger, post-compressor. Since the supercharger sits directly on top of the motor, I'm curious as to how you would get the compressed air out to the intercooler, and then back to the lower intake manifold?

 

[murf]

I like the methanol set up Im running but would be real curious on what the results were on an A to A intercooler. There is more to the methanol set up that meets the initial eye. Gone over here > https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/murfs-methanol-injection-install.760530/
Or here http://www.maperformance.com/blog/s...-kits-benefits-reviews-installs-stage1-20001/

So raising your timing is part of the equation and also the benefit of octane boost. Taking 91 octane and effectively making it akin to race fuel type octane numbers 105-116 depending on factors http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116 -Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

This site suggests running both together (see Q&A near bottom) http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/02/benefits-of-watermethanol-injection/

While it is cool/cold out during the winter, I turn down my methanol injection. My truck runs great with 50 degree intake temps and keeping the timing at 11 degrees. No pinging with 91 octane and I am getting full use of the Supercharger. I feel that If I lived in Alaska I would not need Methanol for my SC set up in my opinion other than for additional power from the octane standpoint. With the heat in the desert here basically rendering my supercharger weak when intake temps get real high (been up to 164 before!) and retards the timing, less dense air, etc like mentioned in the top link, that is where it makes a huge difference. Being in SoCal would make sense for your set up.

I do like the adjustability of the meth system where you can dial it in when to come in and how fast to come on (full injection at activation or ramped up based on pedal position).

If it wasn't for the CA emissions (are you sure youd have to remove it each time?) it would be worth it to run both. Good luck, subscribed on your journey.

 

[Robb235]

If you do run both, be sure to inject after the intercooler and not before.

 

[1973Guppie]

Do you have Nick's kit?

Why would it have to come off in California?

yes I do, not sure if it will have to come off or not, but would probably pull it just being cautious....

 

[1973Guppie]

I like the methanol set up Im running but would be real curious on what the results were on an A to A intercooler. There is more to the methanol set up that meets the initial eye. Gone over here > https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/murfs-methanol-injection-install.760530/
Or here http://www.maperformance.com/blog/s...-kits-benefits-reviews-installs-stage1-20001/

So raising your timing is part of the equation and also the benefit of octane boost. Taking 91 octane and effectively making it akin to race fuel type octane numbers 105-116 depending on factors http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116 -Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

This site suggests running both together (see Q&A near bottom) http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/02/benefits-of-watermethanol-injection/

While it is cool/cold out during the winter, I turn down my methanol injection. My truck runs great with 50 degree intake temps and keeping the timing at 11 degrees. No pinging with 91 octane and I am getting full use of the Supercharger. I feel that If I lived in Alaska I would not need Methanol for my SC set up in my opinion other than for additional power from the octane standpoint. With the heat in the desert here basically rendering my supercharger weak when intake temps get real high (been up to 164 before!) and retards the timing, less dense air, etc like mentioned in the top link, that is where it makes a huge difference. Being in SoCal would make sense for your set up.

I do like the adjustability of the meth system where you can dial it in when to come in and how fast to come on (full injection at activation or ramped up based on pedal position).

If it wasn't for the CA emissions (are you sure youd have to remove it each time?) it would be worth it to run both. Good luck, subscribed on your journey.

thx for this info! appreciated. Now I have some reading to do this morning. What meth injection kit are you running? Most likely all the meth stuff would have to come off for smog but really not a big deal, like an hour of work probably. I only smog every 2 years so. So if I were running both is it reccomended that I change the tune/timing to a higher #, ie: 11?

and your comments along the lines of where we live and the hot ambient air over the summers is where I was going with my thoughts, seems that more cooling for the air is better where we live. I am guessing the guys at snow performance could probably reccomend a timing # to set my engine to?

 

[1973Guppie]

If you do run both, be sure to inject after the intercooler and not before.

yes, that is what I have been told. I would most likely inject after the intercooler right before going into the throttle body. Is the reason for this that you don't want to condense the air before the intercooler? still learning about this stuff......

 

[1973Guppie]

guys, here is the kit I am considering, I like the idea it uses the maf signal, I think scottyrana reccomended this one??

http://www.snowperformance.net/stage-2-maf-boost-cooler.html

 

[1973Guppie]

the other benefit I see to having BOTH the a to a IC and the meth injection is in the situation where I may run out of meth fluid and at least I still have the intercooler helping lower IAT's.....

 

[wearsabrowncoat]

I was reading the FAQ from snow performance, and on question 17 they say inject pre supercharger: http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_type.php?type=gasoline

An intercooler isn't considered with that particular question/answer so what would the consensus in our system? Pre supercharger or post intercooler?

 

[Robb235]

the other benefit I see to having BOTH the a to a IC and the meth injection is in the situation where I may run out of meth fluid and at least I still have the intercooler helping lower IAT's.....

You can also stop by the nearest Lowes and pick up this stuff, it's -25 degree wiper fluid:

http://m.lowes.com/pd/SPLASH-1-Gallon-De-Icer-Windshield-Washer-Fluid/50068653

According to the MSDS, it's 34% methanol.

http://www.consulab.com/files/windshieldwasher.pdf

Throw in a bottle or two of Heet, and you can make it even stronger.

 

[murf]

thx for this info! appreciated. Now I have some reading to do this morning. What meth injection kit are you running? Most likely all the meth stuff would have to come off for smog but really not a big deal, like an hour of work probably. I only smog every 2 years so. So if I were running both is it reccomended that I change the tune/timing to a higher #, ie: 11?

and your comments along the lines of where we live and the hot ambient air over the summers is where I was going with my thoughts, seems that more cooling for the air is better where we live. I am guessing the guys at snow performance could probably reccomend a timing # to set my engine to?

Guppie, yes that looks like the same snow Maf designed kit #20011 that I am running. The kit is very simple and actually hard to spot. Don't think youd have to remove anything for smog. Yes, after trial and error, I found I can run my base timing at 11 degrees and not ping. Under hard accel, with the meth off, it will ping. With it on, it does not.

You can also stop by the nearest Lowes and pick up this stuff, it's -25 degree wiper fluid:

http://m.lowes.com/pd/SPLASH-1-Gallon-De-Icer-Windshield-Washer-Fluid/50068653

According to the MSDS, it's 34% methanol.

http://www.consulab.com/files/windshieldwasher.pdf

Throw in a bottle or two of Heet, and you can make it even stronger.

I found that if you go to your local fuel/oil distributor, you can buy pails of pure methanol so you can run make your own 50/50 with distilled. The 50\50 gives the best possible performance at a comparable cost per gallon of mix.

Definitely something that I learned a lot by reading and talking to the Snow company technical staff which were very helpful. my perception of how it worked changed after much reading and experiencing it. the top thread goes through all those points and might help when you get the time to check it out.

 

[Timpanogos Slim]

Intercoolers, short of plumbing an air-to-water intercooler through a chiller, can only do ambient temperature at best.

Water injection can get you below ambient. Also if you install enough temperature sensors, you'll notice that air-to-air in the summer rarely gets close to ambient.

The water and methanol also work to both add more fuel AND increase the effective octane rating of the total fuel mixture. This prevents knocking and allows the ECU to keep the timing advanced.

Generally speaking, 91 pump gas + water/meth injection = in excess of 100 octane (effective). Estimates range from 105 to 110.

The stock ECU won't take full advantage of that, but it can't hurt either.

 

[Robb235]

I found that if you go to your local fuel/oil distributor, you can buy pails of pure methanol so you can run make your own 50/50 with distilled. The 50\50 gives the best possible performance at a comparable cost per gallon of mix.

Completely agree. Just posting an alternative option for if you're traveling, or otherwise don't have access to large quantities of pure methanol.

 

[RS6tofj80]

I love my Snow stage 3 kit on my Audi...... it was super reliable once tuned right. Methanol was best but washer fluid wasn't all bad...

hope Mr T does another run of SC'ers before my pennies are all rolled up for a 6.0 swap.... kinda....

 

[1973Guppie]

murf, are you running a smaller SC pulley?

 

[1973Guppie]

so I read a few of those pages murf posted and one of them states this:

Is an intercooler necessary?
50/50 water/methanol will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed to handle up to 30 psig of boost. However, an intercooler and water/methanol injection together would provide even greater benefits, especially beyond 30 psig of boost

no way am I going to be boosting up to 30 psi! I have plans to run a smaller pulley (2.8) and then will advance the timing a bit, so this begs my original question, is doing BOTH overkill for my specified plans?? If I am going to get basically no gain from the air to air intercooler because I am already running meth injection I would rather not cut up my hood, etc.

any thoughts?

thx, Noah

 

[scottryana]

That 30psi means nothing. It is just a measure of air backed up waiting to enter the engine. If you have a tiny turbo/supercharger working way outside of its efficiency zone to make 10psi the intake air temp will be hotter than a huge turbo making 30psi. Really the thing you need to look at is the actual intake air temp, the volume of air you will have and the amount of meth/water youre going to inject.

You can figure your air
You select your water/Meth nozzle
And the intake air temp should be able to be gotten from someone with the setup you want to run.

It is not overkill it is a safety measure to run both. what if your water/Meth nozzle clogs, the pump dies, etc