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Ahh geese..- Oil leak

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by landtoy80, Dec 28, 2003.

  1. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    Most likely its the rear main seal retainer. The retainer is what holds the seal in and the bottom of the retainer buts up with the upper oil pan. This is where the my leak was but I didn't know about the retainer.
    I droped the tranny and replaced the seal without the retainer and it still leaked.
    Dropped the tranny again and this time pulled the retainer and found that it was leaking there.
    Could of just dropped the two oil pans and sealed them.
     
  2. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    You did not state the year model of your rig. That is essential in assisting in diagnosis. DanKunz speaks of a 3FE and landtoy80 speeks of a 1FZ.

    Both are on the right track for the particular engines they refer to. In the case of a 3FE it could be the rear pan arch section of the oil pan gasket or the rear main seal. In the case of the 1FZ it is the rear pan arch or a rear main seal. I see more arches than rear mains in the 1FZ. In the 3FE its a toss-up.

    D-
     
  3. DanKunz

    DanKunz SILVER Star

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    I was speaking for the 3FE and the 1FZ :D
     
  4. Rookie2

    Rookie2

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    Whoops, '97' Lx450 - 1FZ.

    I'm not sure if I know what you're referring to on the rear pan arch. Is that a seal or some kind of retainer? Can you explain what's involved to change it? I haven't been able to locate any discussions on this in my Chiltons - just the rear main removal. I probably need to go ahead and drop the cash on an FSM.

    Thanks for the help gents.
    Rookie2
     
  5. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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  6. 97cruiser

    97cruiser

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    I'm confused as to what you call the "rear pan arch", I too have a very small amount of oil that gathers at the seam of the tranny and engine. My oil pan does not leak that I can see but I don't see any arches. Are we talking inside the pan maybe?
    I have removed the plastic cap and looked inside. The only evidence of oil I can find is if I stick my finger inside there and run it along the inner forward side of that inspection hole where you can't see.
    This leak is so small it doesn't even drip, rather it just gathers there.

    Thnx, Vince
     
  7. DanKunz

    DanKunz SILVER Star

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    [quote author=cruiserdan link=board=2;threadid=9327;start=msg81545#msg81545 date=1072723679]
    DK, There is no peek hole on a 97 :'( just a teensy slot for stuff to drip out of....... :-\
    [/quote]

    What can I say?....oh, I know...

    3FE POWA!
     
  8. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    Gentlemen, note Mr Kunz is possesed by a crankshaft supported by only 4 main bearings........ :whoops:

    JK, DK, no worries :cheers:

    The "pan arch" is the scalloped cutout that goes under the crankshaft. The rear crank seal retainer rides in this "saddle".
    In the case of the 1FZ this area is sealed by FIPG or liquid sealer or "silicone". In the case of the 3FE a portion of the pan gasket seals that area.
    It seems that in the majority of rear oil leaks in a 1FZ the area where the retainer contacts the pan is what is leaking as opposed to the rear crank seal.
    The transmission must be removed to replace the seal but the bottom of the retainer can be re-sealed by removing the oil pans.
    It is also possible to remove the retainer and re-seal it with the transmission out and the oil pans in place.

    As with all things Murphy, if you pull the pan it'll be the seal and if you pull the trans it'll be the retainer.

    D-
     
  9. Rookie2

    Rookie2

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    Vince,

    Your post sounds like we're dealing with the exact same thing only mine has progressed slightly further. A month or so ago, mine only amounted to semi-dried oil gag-gis, but this week I started seeing a periodic drop on the garage floor. I wiped the arear clean this weekend and went back later that day (without driving) to find newly collected oil along this seam and by the "little" hole. No oil around the oil pan.

    I've still got to get my bearings straight on where this "pan arch" and retainer is, but probably won't get to take a closer look until later this week.

    Please keep me informed if you come up with anything. I'll do the same.

    Thanks,
    Rookie2
     
  10. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Moderator

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    This may or may not help - I've got a "drip a night" oil leak on my 80 (1FZ). Had my friend check it (Toy Master Tech) and it's the oil pan. He'd mentioned that he'd only seen like one rear main on an 80 leak.
     
  11. 97cruiser

    97cruiser

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    Rookie, I was just under there lookin around again and all I can figure is this arch is located in the second pan. Now being the rookie I am, I call the oil pan the pan that has the oil drain nut on it. Now I think the pro's are saying this second oil pan is what the 1st oil pan bolts to, no?

    Thnx, Vince
     
  12. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    The #1 pan is the large aluminum pan that attaches directly to the engine block, it has the "arch". The #2 pan is the steel lower pan. The #2 pan has to come off first as there are some "blind" bolts for the #1 pan that can not be accessed with the #2 pan in place.

    D-
     
  13. 97cruiser

    97cruiser

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    Cool thnx c-dan, that's what I was trying to say. Is that #1 pan very difficult or involving to remove?

    No fsm yet...... :( but I'm betting my retainer seal is leaking and would like to take a look.

    Thnx, Vince
     
  14. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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  15. Rookie2

    Rookie2

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    Okay, I think I've got my bearings straight now and understand all the pieces and parts you're referring to CruiserDan. Thanks for your patience.

    I did get a chance to get under my rig tonight and look things over. I pulled off the cover of the view port and there was suprizingly little oil on the inside of this area. I managed to get a small mirror up in there to take a look at the retainer and rear main seal. There does appear to be a small amount of oil coming from this arear, but I can't really tell from which one.

    I may see if I can take a picture of it tomorrow night and post it, but I ain't sure I got those kind of close up, mirror tail-gunner skills.

    I'll check out this other link. I may be back to find out what a man needs in the way of gaskets, sealer etc.. in order to drop and install these two pans.

    Thanks,
    Rookie2
     
  16. 97cruiser

    97cruiser

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    The engine will have to be let loose of the front mounts and jacked up a bit to allow removall of the upper oil pan.
    YYYeah, my very small oil leak suddenly seems very tolerable. Thnx for convincing me of that Dan ;)
    Good luck Rookie2, doesn't sound like a :banana: job.

    Vince
     
  17. Rookie2

    Rookie2

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    Vince- Looking through the repair manual, it actually doesn't look to bad except this last part about lifting the engine.

    CruiserDan - My manual doesn't say anything about lifting the engine. This is my biggest hurdle, can you elaborate on how this is done? And can it be done without having to unhook a bunch of stuff?

    As far as what I need to do the job - looks like FIPG sealer, oil level sensor gasket, oil plug gasket, solvent to clean out oil pans (any product suggestions?). Please let me know if I've missed anything.

    Thanks again,
    Rookie2
     
  18. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    I think the FSM doesn't mention it because they assume the engine is out of the chassis or maybe it is because ours are LHD and the frame brace may be in a different location for a RHD chassis.

    It is necessary to remove the nuts from the engine mounts on the chassis side. You will also need to remove the fan assembly and fan shroud to allow the engine to come up. You will also need to remove the battery/ies and tray/s to get the shroud out.
    I used an engine lifting bar that spans the engine bay and rests on the inner mounting rails of the fenders. It has a threaded hook that attaches to the front engine lifting eye. You then crank it up with a wrench.
    A less desirable method is to use a jack with a suitable block and jack the engine up by the crank pulley. I do not recommend this as there is a chance of damage to the pulley and a possibility that the jack could slip and cause SERIOUS INJURY :eek: .
    In adition, there is not as much room to install the pan with the jack in the way.

    As far as cleaning the pans, I used a stodard solvent cleaning sink and lots of elbow grease. Then I degreased them with brake parts cleaner. I used emery cloth on the engine block.

    D-
     
  19. Rookie2

    Rookie2

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    Okay Dan.

    I agree on the jacking option.. sounds a little risky.

    Would any old auto-store carry this engine lift bar, or is that a home brew?

    So apparently there's enough play in the tranny and driveshaft linkages to do this without messing something up?

    Thanks for your patience - not trying to where you out. I think I'm getting somewhere, not ready to give in just yet.

    Rookie2
     
  20. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    The one I used was fabricated by a friend of mine. They are also commercially made. They are primarily used for front wheel drive vehicles during transmission work.