I have a 2022 GX460, and just purchased after market recovery points from Bbg4x4 for the front. However I’ve seen some IG posts with people hooking up shackles to the stock tow/strap points. Is that sufficient enough or do I need aftermarket recovery points bolted into the chassis? I’m guessing those stock points are not good enough for snatching? Thanks for the help!
Aftermarket Front Recovery Points, are they needed? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter easton85
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Don't need pics. just look under your vehicle and start counting the holes in the frame. Almost every one of them is a usable recovery point.
Extreme recovery like that is the norm in the off road world. I get he uses clever camera angles for the views. He and his crew use techniques that anyone else would in those situations. Search and Rescue and vehicle recovery in nasty situations is always a risk. My takeaway from his channel is a reminder of not putting ones self in those situations in the first place.
He and his son have years of serious off road skills that they use to make a living recovering others.
Are suggesting attach a bow shackle or soft shackle through those holes?
Pros use chain sets with various types of hooks to exploit those frame holes. This is one example:
parts.ectts.com
G70 Towing Chain 10 in x 5/16 in | ECTTS
Get this Grade 70 Towing Chain 10 in x 5/16 in by ECTTS with Free Shipping anywhere in the US on orders $150 or more only at ECTTS.
parts.ectts.com
And not a single one of them is rated.
Neither are most aftermarket points.
Good SAFE gear costs real money.
Your weakest link should always be the winch. I laugh my ass off when people put a 12k lb winch on a GX. In any real hard pull recovery that is just asking to be decapitated by your cable or if synthetic, to launch a rigging point at your vehicle as fast as a bullet.
People should spend more money on training before spending it on gear IMO.
Pros use chain sets with various types of hooks to exploit those frame holes. This is one example:
G70 Towing Chain 10 in x 5/16 in | ECTTS
Get this Grade 70 Towing Chain 10 in x 5/16 in by ECTTS with Free Shipping anywhere in the US on orders $150 or more only at ECTTS.
"Pros" use rated gear and rated recovery points. Towing companies use what you posted to strap a vehicle down on a flatbed.
Dumb question: This is because the 12k winch is too much for the GX so the cable fails before the winch drum/motor/mount?
No the other rigging elements typically fail first or you bend your frame. Having that much available pull force on such a small rig can be super dangerous.
Ideally, the winch maxes out and stops turning before anything breaks or bends.
Add a snatch block to the mix and you double the winches force at the block. Things get risky quick with a big winch and cheap gear!
All good points you make. In fact there is nothing weight rated on any vehicle except towing/tongue weight, GVWR, tire capacity and in some cases (mostly trucks) cargo capacity.
Training is one of the best modifications you can make to any vehicle.
I will disagree with the winch comment though. I would get the very largest capacity and duty cycle that you can afford. 8-9K minimum for a GX that is not loaded down with the typical "overloading" junk.
A higher capacity winch with at least a 80% duty cycle so as to have the ability to do long uninterrupted pulls without killing the solenoids. And yes experience using it is the key.
For the GX I would not even add a winch for the type of rig it is. Again, in the North America market I don't see the point of one on this particular vehicle.
A cable or line can fail with any winch regardless of pulling capacity. Especially when using one or more snatch blocks or dragging across rocks. Anyone who has experience with recovery knows to use the very highest capacity you can and keep extra solenoids/line on hand. When we were doing daily commercial recoveries in the 90's we had extra solenoids hard mounted for quick swaps and also kept a spare cable on hand.
I would go so far to say it gets risky with any cheap gear including the winch. Most all (experienced) recoveries fail due to solenoid or motor failures due to overheating. I only have experience with Warn and Ramsey winches. Warn were the worst. While the warranty was good, the winches just did not last for day in day out use. The Ramsey were as reliable as a hammer. Just replace solenoids as needed.
Oops edit: Long pulls will kill the windings in the motor. Multiple on/off/reverse for recovery point adjustments kill the solenoids.
r2m
Richard
Pros use chain sets with various types of hooks to exploit those frame holes. This is one example:
G70 Towing Chain 10 in x 5/16 in | ECTTS
Get this Grade 70 Towing Chain 10 in x 5/16 in by ECTTS with Free Shipping anywhere in the US on orders $150 or more only at ECTTS.
I don't think I'd be using any "Towing Chains" for recovery. The WLL (Working Load Limit) of that hook and chain posted is only 4,700 lbs. That'll snap in a New York second if one tried using it for recovery.
Chains and cables are dangerous, store energy, and can be a projectile (and kill/maim people) if they break or come loose during a recovery. Multiple people have died trying to recover stuck vehicles and equipment using chains and metal cables that have snapped.
For my SRQ recovery points (which are attached to the frame and core support with seven bolts per side), I have a 4.75-ton D ring installed on each side. I have a 8-ft spreader strap, and a 30-ft tow strap in the back of my GX. The straps store very little energy and have a much lower risk of hurting someone if something breaks. I have yet to use this setup, but am pretty comfortable it's safe for my vehicle and others standing around if it does get used.
It all comes back to why chance it - if you are going to off-road, get the proper recovery equipment or don't go. You may never need it, but there is a lot of risk with using the wrong equipment.
For my SRQ recovery points (which are attached to the frame and core support with seven bolts per side), I have a 4.75-ton D ring installed on each side. I have a 8-ft spreader strap, and a 30-ft tow strap in the back of my GX. The straps store very little energy and have a much lower risk of hurting someone if something breaks. I have yet to use this setup, but am pretty comfortable it's safe for my vehicle and others standing around if it does get used.
It all comes back to why chance it - if you are going to off-road, get the proper recovery equipment or don't go. You may never need it, but there is a lot of risk with using the wrong equipment.
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Recovery failure and rigging failure are two different things. I am talking strictly rigging failure which should be more of a concern for us weekenders. People doing daily commercial recovery will chew through gear, no differently than a contractor chews through sawblades. Prefering one winch over another, yadda yadda, irrelevant point. For safety's sake the winch should be the weakest rated component.
Things don't fail slowly in a catastrophic event. They just snap. For synthetic setups, It's not the energy in the strap that is the concern. It's that big heavy bow-shackle, or that snatch block, or hook... that is what's dangerous. If a component fails, the nearest, heaviest piece in the line goes flying at whatever amount of force then winch has on it. The synthetic line will follow like a needle and thread, hence the term "threading the needle". On a hard enough pull this will put a hole in your engine block, through the radiator, through the grill.
Imagine you are running an 8,000 lb winch, set up a straight line recovery with a bow shackle connected to a hooped tree strap. If that bow shackle fails, there is no danger in the strap itself. But... that bow shackle and your hook now instantly have potentially up to 8,000 lbs of force applied in ONLY ONE direction. I'm no physics guru, but that sounds like a lot of kinetic energy that is coming straight at your vehicle, possibly your head.
Now other factors are there for sure. You aren't applying 8,000 lbs until that winch starts to slow down and comes to a stop, and you've got most of the line out (effective "drum diameter" changes as you let out more line, stronger with more line out). This is why it is best to have a modest winch, a winch weaker than all the other elements. If you have a decent tree strap it should be rated at far more than 8,000 lbs, but my point remains. Before something catastrophic happens, the winch will simply run out of juice. Built in safety.
The bottom line is BUY RATED GEAR. Know enough about physics to determine your pull strength if using something like a snatch block. That 8,000 lb winch could now be be applying 16,000 lbs of force to your anchor. All of a sudden you need a way stronger strap and shackle but you doubled your pull force and made that little 8,000 lb winch a whole lot more useful.
I do run a 12k lb winch on my Tundra with an ARB bull bar rated at 15k lbs. That is a 7,000+ lb vehicle which often has 1,000-2,000 lb of gear or truck camper in it while traveling off road. That math makes sense, and the winch is sized right. My rigging gear for the Tundra is far heavier than my GX, I hate loading it all up the bag weighs like 40 lbs. A 4.75T shackle is completely inadequate for this size winch. In my early days before I took training I used to bend shackles all the time, not realizing how god damn dangerous that is. Thankfully never had a bad failure.
Everyone should take a weekend course from a competent crew on how this stuff works. I recommend 7P overland for both training and quality rated gear.
Things don't fail slowly in a catastrophic event. They just snap. For synthetic setups, It's not the energy in the strap that is the concern. It's that big heavy bow-shackle, or that snatch block, or hook... that is what's dangerous. If a component fails, the nearest, heaviest piece in the line goes flying at whatever amount of force then winch has on it. The synthetic line will follow like a needle and thread, hence the term "threading the needle". On a hard enough pull this will put a hole in your engine block, through the radiator, through the grill.
Imagine you are running an 8,000 lb winch, set up a straight line recovery with a bow shackle connected to a hooped tree strap. If that bow shackle fails, there is no danger in the strap itself. But... that bow shackle and your hook now instantly have potentially up to 8,000 lbs of force applied in ONLY ONE direction. I'm no physics guru, but that sounds like a lot of kinetic energy that is coming straight at your vehicle, possibly your head.
Now other factors are there for sure. You aren't applying 8,000 lbs until that winch starts to slow down and comes to a stop, and you've got most of the line out (effective "drum diameter" changes as you let out more line, stronger with more line out). This is why it is best to have a modest winch, a winch weaker than all the other elements. If you have a decent tree strap it should be rated at far more than 8,000 lbs, but my point remains. Before something catastrophic happens, the winch will simply run out of juice. Built in safety.
The bottom line is BUY RATED GEAR. Know enough about physics to determine your pull strength if using something like a snatch block. That 8,000 lb winch could now be be applying 16,000 lbs of force to your anchor. All of a sudden you need a way stronger strap and shackle but you doubled your pull force and made that little 8,000 lb winch a whole lot more useful.
I do run a 12k lb winch on my Tundra with an ARB bull bar rated at 15k lbs. That is a 7,000+ lb vehicle which often has 1,000-2,000 lb of gear or truck camper in it while traveling off road. That math makes sense, and the winch is sized right. My rigging gear for the Tundra is far heavier than my GX, I hate loading it all up the bag weighs like 40 lbs. A 4.75T shackle is completely inadequate for this size winch. In my early days before I took training I used to bend shackles all the time, not realizing how god damn dangerous that is. Thankfully never had a bad failure.
Everyone should take a weekend course from a competent crew on how this stuff works. I recommend 7P overland for both training and quality rated gear.
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Not if its used properly. And yes some winches are better than others. Most weekenders can get away with most any cheap winch.
You are getting a bit dramatic here. As you inspect your gear and deploy it with common sense the risk is minimal.
I have had nothing but 2wd vehicles my whole life and have been able to unstick myself with nothing more than traction boards and a jack. I keep a chain, snatch strap, scissor jack and cheap recovery boards. Most GX owners are not rock crawling their daily drivers.
r2m
Richard
Couple of quick points:
- OllieChrisopher is correct that most of us aren't rock crawlers, but most of us will have a tendency to drive onto a beach, mud whole, desert dunes, etc. and bury their rig to the axles. This happens all too often especially on beaches where the sand can be firm in one spot and then just 20 feet away soft as quicksand. And yes a cheap winch, and the gear OllieChrisopher mentioned will extract a person out of most any of those instances, I'd still make sure my rigging is ratted for several times (3x, 4x or more?) over my vehicles weight.
- Also need to take into consideration pulleys. depending upon how many and the set up. That will multiply the stress on ALL your rigging, winch and attachment points. Consider these calculations: Pulleys - https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pulleys-d_1297.html
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Yeah. Not sure where the winch brand argument started, it's not at all relevant to any points I made.
At no point was I talking about rock crawling specifically. Pulling through a snow drift, sand dune, or out of a mud hole will easily max out a winch on a straight line pull and creates forces far greater than your vehicle weight which are super dangerous.
At no point is this discussion even remotely close to pulling a camry out of a ditch. A 3000 lb car with 5" of clearance to the frame is a FAR easier recovery than a 5500 lb truck with 16" of clearance to the frame... big tires and full axles that are trying to displace the sand/mud/snow.
At no point was I talking about rock crawling specifically. Pulling through a snow drift, sand dune, or out of a mud hole will easily max out a winch on a straight line pull and creates forces far greater than your vehicle weight which are super dangerous.
At no point is this discussion even remotely close to pulling a camry out of a ditch. A 3000 lb car with 5" of clearance to the frame is a FAR easier recovery than a 5500 lb truck with 16" of clearance to the frame... big tires and full axles that are trying to displace the sand/mud/snow.
Yes on a 4 wheel drive vehicle, not a pavement-only passenger car.
