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adjusting the valves

Discussion in '40- & 55-Series Tech' started by swank60, Mar 18, 2004.

  1. swank60

    swank60

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    So, in all of the work I had to do to pass inspection (yet still didn't) one thing has been bothering me - the valve adjustment.

    Here's the rub:
    All of the manuals say one thing - TDC, andjust certain valves, turn it 360 degrees, adjust the rest, right? I called the tech line at Man-A-Fre, and the guy tells me that the way they do it is to put each cyl at TDC on the compression stroke and adjust from there. He said that the manual was absolutely wrong. He also said that they have Toyota dealerships, who, when they can't get it right, send it out to them, and that's how they do it.

    Anyone care to weigh in on this? Are the pistons in the 2F slightly staggered or something? Why would one method be better than the other?

    It's stupid crap like this that keeps me up at night.
     
  2. Landpimp

    Landpimp

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    AFAIK the manual is right and thats how I do mine. But maybe the other method works.....I don't know?
     
  3. rodan

    rodan

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    Putting each cylinder on the compression stroke at TDC will work on any engine. Think about it, if the cylinder is on the compression stroke the valves have to be closed. You want the valves closed when you adjust the them. I have not followed the engine manuals way but I think they are trying to save you some time by not having to turn the engine over as many times. But if you do put the engine on TDC of the compression stroke on each cylinder you can't go wrong.
    Ray
     
  4. IDave

    IDave

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    For the F engine, (and I assume the 2F is really no different, since it ISN'T different on this point), the OEM Toyota Engine Manual says to check the valve lash with the engine idling.

    IF you check the gap and set it with the engine stopped, by the time you've gotten to the 3rd or 4th valve, your engine is starting to cool. This will throw off your measurements, because the valve parts cool and contract. You will end up with clearances that are too tight as a result, not to mention different for different valves because your temps changed gradually. You have to keep the engine running to adjust the valves at operating temperature.

    Yesterday, I did it with a go-nogo feeler guage (available at NAPA), and this makes an excellent method better. With this method, the feeler goes in if the gap is wide enough. Don't worry about futzing around finding TDC, it will slide in when the valve is closed (which is 3/4 of the cycle). If the feeler won't go in, your clearance is too tight. If the next up (no-go) size feeler goes through, you are too loose. You then stop the engine when you have to and adjust slightly depending on the need.

    You will find that the gap changes from the time you measure it to the time you tighten it and then again the time you run it. I believe it is because the rocker arms get a little torqued and unbalanced once you start turning nuts and screws. It matters not a bit whatsoever what the clearance is at any time except when the engine is running. That is the clearance measurement you are interested in.

    I know there are those who disagree. That is because they've never done it this way, so I forgive them. :D

    Again, this is the way the Toyota engineers tell you to do it.
     
  5. red66toy

    red66toy dorkus malorkus GOLD Star

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    So as the engine is running you try and stick in the feeler guage? That won't mess anything up? I am planning on adjusting my valves tomorrow so I am curious now what way is better. Thanks.
     
  6. IDave

    IDave

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    (Sorry about that edit, Red64toy)

    YES, engine running. This is the easier way, as well as being far more accurate.

    Those feeler gauges are springy for a reason. It is possible (by really jam forcing them into a too tight situation) to wear out the gauge and thin the gauge metal after a while. I did that at first when I was trying too hard to get the feeler in there with the clearance too tight (it can be forced, rather than slid. You want "slid".) That is why I bought a new gauge. (Gauges are far cheaper than trips to the mechanic at $50 - $75/hr). But you won't hurt the engine parts.
     
  7. red66toy

    red66toy dorkus malorkus GOLD Star

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    Thanks for the help. I will go and pick up some ot those feeler guages at napa tomorrow. :D
     
  8. ranger

    ranger

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    The only valve lash that I have ever heard of adjusting with the engine running would be valve trains with hydraulic lifters, and you don't use a feeler gauge to do it. This is not the case with a 1F or 2F.
    Adjust valves at normal operating temperature, not while running. The method manafre does the adjustment is correct, and the most accurate.
    I don't even understand the concept of checking valve clearance with a feeler gauge while the engine is running, you'll pound the crap out of your feeler gauge, and accomplish nothing.
     
  9. Rice

    Rice SILVER Star

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    It is not incorrect to use a feeler guage with the engine running (solid lifter, not hydraulic), it's just old school. Busch and Cup builders adjust with engine hot and not running. The amount of contraction that occurs in that time is minimal.
     
  10. Overlord

    Overlord

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    [quote author=ranger link=board=1;threadid=13366;start=msg123769#msg123769 date=1079682483]
    The only valve lash that I have ever heard of adjusting with the engine running would be valve trains with hydraulic lifters, and you don't use a feeler gauge to do it. This is not the case with a 1F or 2F.
    Adjust valves at normal operating temperature, not while running. The method manafre does the adjustment is correct, and the most accurate.
    I don't even understand the concept of checking valve clearance with a feeler gauge while the engine is running, you'll pound the crap out of your feeler gauge, and accomplish nothing.

    [/quote]

    The 2F manual says to do it while the engine is running. Maybe Toyota doesn't know what they are talking about though. :)
     
  11. Landpimp

    Landpimp

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    yes the old F manuals say to do this(when running), 2f/3fe does not, at least in all the OEM manauls I have.

    I have done it with the motor running as well, but its not easy to do, even with the nifty Snap On tool(it holds the adjustment nut and turns the set screw) and its not possible to do it like this on a 3fe because a 3fe won't run with all the vacuum hoses off or the valve cover off......and a 3fe is nothing really more than a 2f with FI,

    My best valve adjustments have been done with the motor stoped, it really takes very little time to do, the motor can be left running(when you take all the crap off to get to the valves) right up till you start the adjustment, so it cools very little, it might take 15 min to adjust the actaull valves. If you think its cooled to much, just put the valve cover back on(or run it with the cover off) and run it for a bit, then do the rest of the valves. If you want you can test your work when the motor is running.
     
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  12. Jukelemon

    Jukelemon

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    If I recall correctly, the 2f manual states to MEASURE valves while the engine is running but ADJUST using the method as described in the first post i.e. 360 rotational method. I have never adjusted valves on this particular engine but I have on others ranging from Harleys to Fords. Exact valve clearance measurements, to me at least, is nearly impossible on a older vehicle. Not saying that you cannot get the engine to run right and well for that matter, BUT you will always be off some by the fact that there is no specific definition of the specific feeling/match of a feeler gauge in a corectly adjusted valve. Point being, you are not working on a Porsche engine and all of the methods above will work/have worked/will continue to work because the f or 2f is not the most efficient engine and should be, like other older engines, OK with the discrepancies caused from different measurement/adjusting techniques. So, swank, do not sweat it. Try both. See if they both work and if there is a difference. My guess is that you will find there is none i.e. all work very well.
     
  13. Landpimp

    Landpimp

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    odd the 76 2f motor FSM says to adjust when not running.

    the 80-87 says to check when running, but its kinda foggy on to adjust running or not, but it never mentions how to put the valves into the right spot to adjust when off........so I must assume they expect you do adjust when running.......
     
  14. IDave

    IDave

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    I certainly do the adjusting with the engine stopped, although I know there are those who do it running. I would just challenge anyone to measure and set the valves with the engine stopped, then go back and measure the clearances running, and see just how far off they end up. I've done it plenty enough times to know that what you measure in the stopped position is very often different from what you have when you start it up again.

    If you end up with too narrow of clearances you will get rough running, loss of power, missing, and carbon buildup. It doesn't require things to be too far off to make a palpable difference, and you could damage your engine.
     
  15. 60wag

    60wag SILVER Star

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  16. Wildabeast60

    Wildabeast60

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    I guess I'll weigh in on this one...When we had the head milled down and put back on (after an overheat and blown head gasket) we ran that sucker with the cover off and checked our adjustments with said feeler gauge. It's been 6 years, but I think we shut it down to make any adjustments. When we got done, that bad boy purred like a kitten. 2F on an '84 FJ60. Took us about an hour for the whole deal! :D
     
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  17. Pin_Head

    Pin_Head

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    There are lots of ways to adjust valves and they are all good if done properly.

    I prefer checking them while running and adjusting any that need it when it is stopped. It is fast, but don't do this while wearing a neck tie.

    The second choice is to just adjust each one at TDC. You just rotate the engine until the intake valve comes up and stops for each cylinder.

    I almost never use the TCD method because I would have to go look up which ones to adjust and this would take more time than just doing it with the other two methods.
     
  18. me78he78

    me78he78

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    feeler guage = NAPA part # SER170 btw.... 12 bucks
     
  19. swank60

    swank60

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    You know what, I forgot to mention the the running method - guess I blocked it out. The 1980 OEM manual that I have for the engine only is foggy, like Pimp said - that's under the tune up section (2-19). However, in the next section, it goes into the stopped engine method (section 3-19).

    I was confused by the whole running engine/adjustment thing. I was hoping to keep my fingers. It makes a lot more sense to check the clearance while running, then shutting it off to adjust. However, the whole man-a-fre thing sounds good, but I don't have a full weekend just to piddle with the valves.

    I'll head out to NAPA this weekend and get me one of them there fant-cy feeler gauges and inlist some poor sucker to help me in the next week or two.
     
  20. wesintl

    wesintl

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    while i understand the concept of checking while running i'm with ranger that it hammered the crap out of the feeler and almost ruined it. How do you check it without ruining the feelers. vwerry vwerry carefully or what? I end up doing the intake.. fire it up to heat it back up and then do the exhaust. Depending on how out of adjustment they were i'll double check them..