'88 FJ62 Drivetrain Options Advice Please (1 Viewer)

60Works

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I'm slowly building an '88 FJ62 and have reached a point where several major decisions have to be made before work can continue. The truck is nearly stock, rust free, a little tattered, and has 300,000 miles on it. It needs a new drivetrain and I want to plan it as a system from the beginning rather than get locked into a path because I purchased gears or a transmission early and have to adapt to what's existing.

The intended use is for camping roadtrips into fairly remote areas; very typical for how we use our Cruisers. It needs to be a jack of all trades vehicle rather than a rock crawler with 37's or a daily driver with 31's. Dependability, range, and future parts availability are what we are all looking for. The auto transmission is coming out. While I'm not a complete Toyota purist (at least on this truck) I'm pleased with the robustness of most of Mr. T's Land Cruiser components.

I've got a couple of removed 2F engines with around 170,000 miles on them that would make good short blocks for a potential 2FE. I've read several of Mud's flame wars about 2F's vs 3FE's vs 2FE's and, though (almost) content with the 3FE's power, I doubt whether a 2FE is any real improvement. Losing 500 rpm means losing 12% horsepower and it would take a significant gain in torque to offset that.

I have rebuilt the stock axles with new 3:73 gears and ARB's but I'm thinking they should have been 4:11's. I'll probably move those into Frankie. The 2F/H55/3:73/32" combo in Frankie ('87 FJ60) is just a little tall in gearing for the power available. It's perfect for a highway cremepuff like her but probably not the best for this application. I'd like to run an H55 with the stock split case but am open to suggestions. I'd also like to have a 3rd gear set like a Toybox or a Ranger to allow both highway speeds and trail gearing. If possible, is there a set up that is just enough longer (5 3/4" longer) that would not require moving the crosssmember when switching from auto to manual transmissions?

I'd love to stuff a 12HT in it but I'm doubtfull parts will be available 10 years from now. Would the higher RPM of a V8 mean 4:56 gearing would be better? If you run the low gearing of an underdrive with the high gearing of 3:73 and large tires will you destroy the ring and pinion? Is it better to run an overdrive with low diff gearing? Do the planetary overdrives make a lot of noise on the highway? An underdrive planetary whine wouldn't matter at slow speeds.

Perhaps it would be better to ask about specific options:

2FE/H55/Toybox/Split Case/4:11/33"

Pros: known options and mostly Toyota
Cons: low power, no Toyboxes available, and dwindling future parts availability

V8/AA Bell/Ranger/H55/Split Case/4:11/33"


V8/GM Bell/NV4500/AA/Split Case/4:11/33"

Pros: good parts availability, known procedure
Cons: no low range gears

V8/GM Bell/NV4500/?Dual Case?/Split Case/3:73/33"
V8/GM Bell/NV4500/Black Box/Split Case/3:73/33"


What trains are you running and what options do you all recommend?

Thanks a lot!
 
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cruisermatt

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Good luck finding a Toybox is all I can say. I would also wait until this new black box is proven to be reliable.

By the end of this year I'll have:

Rebuilt 3FE/H41/splitcase/4.11/33

Hopefully in the long term:

H55F/blackbox/4.56's

More money needed...
 

NCFJ

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Given the criteria that you outlined I would go with the option you mentioned
V8/GM Bell/NV4500/AA/Split Case/4:11/33"

You can get a lower gear set for the split case if you feel that you require it but the low range of the first gear in the NV4500 should serve you well enough.
Parts availability is huge for these motors and you can get parts at any box parts store anywhere in the country. The power difference goes without saying. This is a power train that will take you well into the future where the scrap yards will be full (already starting) with motors that can be swapped out apples for apples once the initial swap has been done.

Disclaimer- look at my sig line, I am more than likely bias :)

Good luck with your project
Stan
 

60Works

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Thanks, cruisermatt and Stan.

It's too bad that the AA adaptor which connects an NV4500 to a split case doesn't have a reduction gear box in it. The length is perfect to keep the crossmember. That is if the GM Bell puts the SBC far enough forward in the engine compartment. I thought that the spacing was one of the bennefits of using a Ranger in front of the transmission. It serves as a spacer, a 3rd gearbox, and as an adaptor. I suppose I could use a ranger with an NV4500 but that would still require an AA adaptor to the splitcase and that adds another $1,500 and something else to break and require bearings.
 
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what about an hd-t with a442? are you totally against an auto? they may be pricy but you will likely get parts for a while yet and you get the diesel. fairly simple swap from what I hear. just need to relocate engine mounts this way.
 

gregnash

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This has been something that has been on my mind as I have learned more and more about my truck. With the ever dwindling availability of parts for the 2F (and even 3FE) I am finding that the Toyota Purist is losing out on this battle. My truck has an undocumented amount of miles (PO I bought it from said that the speedo cable died on him 3yrs before I bought it, I have officially had the truck for two years now and replaced the speed after a few months of ownership only to have it die again less than 1k miles later. Now here I am almost a year later and getting ready to throw another in from a used 60), she smokes on start-up (which I haven't diagnosed), has a random stumble, and still occasionally diesels on shutdown. With all that, the understanding that there is close to 200k on the truck, if not more, I am debating on the resuscitation process for BeBe when the time comes.

For me cheapest process is going to win out unless the inevitable happens some years down the road, which is buy a used engine and just dump it in and go. That is, unless, the issue is semi easy fix (like head gasket replacement) which will require little money and only time.

From my reading, should I gain the time to be able to dump a whole new drivetrain into the truck and with my criteria being similar to yours (reliability, range, parts availability, etc.) and similar uses; camping, biking, dirt dog hauling, some extended trips, fire service roads but no major "crawling" (so nothing bigger than 33s) I am thinking that out of the options you gave the best is going to be.....

V8/GM Bell/NV4500/AA/Split Case/4:11/33"

Thoughts behind this;
- the Vortec V8 will suffice for most of the criteria (reliability still has me cringe a little, its American made and I have issues with that from previous experience) and allow for good gas mileage from a powersource that is used everywhere within the US (so if you breakdown in some small down it is 90% guarantee they will have necessary parts IN STOCK),
- the GM Bell with NV4500 will allow for great gearing for HWY and off-road allowing you to truck comfortably along at modern day speeds without issue and give you a little extra comfort while doing so,
- Using the rest of the drivetrain will allow for the Toyota known indestructability and the ability to still keep that Toyota Purist part of you sated because you have kept it that way.

All of this will cost about $10k-$15k to have a good shop do it (which this is outside my knowledge, while I would love to attempt it will see what circumstances hold at the time) and somewhere between $8k-$10k if done on your own. While the Toyota Purist in me is crying that I can grab a 12H-T or 1HD-T swap for about the same price and keep it Toyota the problem then again rests with reliability of parts and their availability. There are time when I really hate that the logical adult wins out on these debates!! :bang::crybaby:
 

Onur

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This has been something that has been on my mind as I have learned more and more about my truck. With the ever dwindling availability of parts for the 2F (and even 3FE) I am finding that the Toyota Purist is losing out on this battle.

Actually, the 2F has tons of parts availability still-- see my engine build thread. Every single nut bolt and part is currently new. :) Even the crankshaft pulley will be a new one.

The 3F-E: not so much. All of the EFI components are pretty much discontinued. Engine internals are still available.

That said: 1HZ/H55/Split case would be a bad ass solution: almost all of the parts are available through normal procurement lines (new block, head, etc.)

1HD-T: Not so much.
 

gregnash

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I stand corrected... strange that the older carburated engine would have more parts available than the new EFI model. But then again I guess that makes sense seeing as the EFI model/parts have changed so much over the years and the carb stuff has probably been pretty much the same since way back when.

1HZ with the H55 would be awesome but how easy is it to get parts in the US? One of the main criteria is availability of parts and that is really where the V8 has us beat for the most part.
 

Onur

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I can get pretty much 99% of 1HZ parts in the US: block, head, engine gasket kit, manifolds, oil pan, intake, nuts, bolts, etc.
 

60Works

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Very good and interesting information, Beno. Thank you.

Found a short video on aftermarket turbos for the 1HZ. Makes me want to move to where all the cool toys are still available.

http://4xforum.com/2010/11/turbo-charging-a-toyota-42-1hz-engine.html

Greg, one of my 2F's was smoking on start up like yours. I figured is was oil leaking past the valve guides. I thought about pulling the head but ended up retiring the whole truck because it was so rusty. With a little head work and a carb overhaul you may be good for another 100k on BeBe.

I would prefer a diesel, a turbo diesel, but it seems to all be either one-off experimentals or non-USA engines. I need to hang out in the diesel forum more and explore those options in detail. I wish there was a clear diesel conversion 'winner'; a commonly accepted best path for a conversion. The V8 options are very well explored with threads detailing which pans, headers, and model engines work best together. I don't have the expertice, time, or facilities to design and fab a new truck.

And the thought of spending as much for a petrol V8 as for a diesel converstion is confounding me too. At $15,000 for a turn-key V8 install, a RHD Jap import HJ61 starts to look obtainable. And that would come with the high roof and cable lockers. Of course it would also be high mileage and all nearly worn out, which is where I'm starting from now. Then I start thinking about an FZJ-80. :bang:

Thanks for responding Franklin. An auto just isn't an option for me. It's merely personal preferrence and I understand that others feel differently.
 

Onur

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Georg has the engine mounts for a 1HZ for a FJ60.

It's a pretty simple engine to stab into an FJ60.

1HZ/H55/split case is pretty much a universal combo for all non-US 7x vehicles.

If I had $$$ that's the direction I would go.

Albeit, I am wasting a lot of $$$$ doing what I am doing on my 2F. :lol:
 
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I personally think a torque splitter like the ranger would be unnecessary with either the H55 or the NV4500. Both transmissions have good road gears, OD, and a decently low 1st gear. 4.11 gears, 33" tires and granny gear 1st should be enough for a general purpose wheeler. If you really want to crawl, I would look into the 4:1 low range offered by AA instead of an additional gearbox. Just seem simpler to me and if you want regular low range, put it in 3rd-5th.

Given the choices listed, I would probably go:

5.3 or 6.0 > NV4500 > AA > toy split case > 4.11 > 33"

Or a cheaper, possibly more fun, but probably less reliable route:

rebuilt or refreshed 3FE & slap a small turbo on that puppy > H55 > toy split case > 4:11 > 33"
 
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NCFJ

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V8/GM Bell/NV4500/AA/Split Case/4:11/33"

Thoughts behind this;
- the Vortec V8 will suffice for most of the criteria (reliability still has me cringe a little, its American made and I have issues with that from previous experience) and allow for good gas mileage from a powersource that is used everywhere within the US (so if you breakdown in some small down it is 90% guarantee they will have necessary parts IN STOCK),

The Vortec motors are fleet motors. There is plenty of documentation showing the 5.3 and 6L getting 300-500K on just oil changes and spark plugs in fleet service. This is one of the big selling points on these motors.
 
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I wonder if the best metric(s) to begin such a comparison would be peak torque and peak hp curves. Then you could gear (tranny, diffs and wheels) based on what you want to use the vehicle for...

I bet there is the expertise here on MUD to gather this information

Here is the info I've run across here on MUD to date (they're not graphs, just numbers...and incomplete):

2F = 210 ft.lbs. @ 1800 rpm
3B = 166 ft.lbs. @ 2200 rpm
2H = 177 ft.lbs. @ 2000 rpm
1HZ = 206 ft. lbs. @ 2200 rpm
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/2f-torque-curve-graph.145871/

1GR-FE = 266 lb·ft @ 4000 rpm

"The 1GR-FE is the 4.0 L (3956 cc) version, designed for longitudinal mounting in RWD and 4WD pickup applications. It has a 94 mm bore and a stroke of 95 mm. Output is 236 hp (176 kW) at 5200 rpm with 266 lb·ft (361 N·m) of torque at 4000 rpm on 87 octane, and 239 hp (178 kW) at 5200 rpm with 278 lb·ft (377 N·m) at 3700 rpm on 91 octane."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine
 
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Just install the v8 and enjoy.

<Vortec: I Did 1k mile trip to northern AZ and then Disneyland this weekend. 75 mph, keeping up with traffic in the mountains, 17 MPG average.... fxxxin beast didnt miss a beat. I would not want to do that trip with the 2f...enough said :worms:

Only thing is that the engine outshines the truck a bit... the ride is still a bit rugged and unrefined by today's standards. Not that I care, but the :princess: does.
 

60Works

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Thank you everyone for your thoughts and advice.

For those of you who are familiar with the V8 install, if going with: V8/GM Bell/NV4500/AA/Split case, to get the engine positioned ideally forward and aft, where does the rear cross member need to be? Or more specifically, will the stock cross member from either a 60 or a 62 work? Or do you have to replace both?

And is the shifter in a workable location when the engine is right?
 

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