40 series capability and durability (1 Viewer)

[SaturnAscends]

They have sway bars and a stiffer chassis. Pretty sure the post-99 with coils can't drop the front wheel as much that the ones with leaves also.
They compensate by often having at least a rear LSD and for some lockers (and are far better and stable on-road).

I've seen some videos of the 79 series off road in Australia and the suspension seems extremely stiff like you were saying. In fact they are prone to huge wheel lifts, almost like an IFS vehicle. IMO they're not really deigned for technical off-roading; they're more suited to agricultural/industrial applications.

 

[desmocruiser]

Yes, my 96 Tacoma performs well on those tight trails, even with open diffs. Obviously it's not as spacious or robust as a solid axle Cruiser though. Now that you mention it, I wonder if a 60 series would flex better than a 40 due to the extra weight?

The suspension setup is essentially the same and I haven’t seen many circumstances where a 60 has any better flex and probably less max articulation on built rigs due to fender lines.

The only 60 advantage is when more wheelbase is helpful.

 

[desmocruiser]

Yes, my 96 Tacoma performs well on those tight trails, even with open diffs. Obviously it's not as spacious or robust as a solid axle Cruiser though.

Exactly, effective wheeling is really maximized with more seat time and familiarity with a specific rig. Plus learning and wheeling with open diffs is a great trainer of good lines and throttle control!

 

[plink01]

I’ve always like how leaf spring suspensions behave off road: very stable and flex is adequate. It’s not the like 80 series is a rock buggy either in stock form with its radius arms setup.

The 40 series flexes like a brick. The 80 series you can just point it where you want to go and the suspension does the rest. The 40 with the short wheel base gets real crazy in tricky situations if you don't get your lines right.

I love driving the 40 and it's my preferred off road vehicle because of its character and limitations. You really have to drive it properly or it can go pear shaped real quick. I take it offroad twice as much as my 80.

The 80 series is better in every single way except turning circle. And it's not just a little bit better, it dominates it. The 40 is literally just an indestructible box on wheels designed in the 50's.

The 80 is like driving a limousine in the bush in comparison. I'm from Aus so I can't really compare what you guys drive in. But in our conditions in the high country it's not even debatable what car is better offroad.

But like I said I'll still choose the 40 nearly every time just coz it's so ****ing cool and fun to drive.

 

[flx]

40 series always ends up on its wheels =D

 

[lcwizard]

I great off road vehicle is built not bought. The stock 40 is limited by it's suspension, gearing and manual steering. The gearing is better in the non USA models
but I still prefer lower. If you do a good job on those three, the 40 wins. I've owned 40s, 55, 60s 80s but only considered the 40 for rock crawling competition.
The early mini trucks did well also. Big problem with 60s and 80s is over the hood visibility and sheet metal exposure in tight trails, the 80 more so than the 60.
Until buggies began to rule it was the Jeep and 40 style vehicle that dominated the competition rock crawls. There's never been a stock vehicle sold in the USA
that I would have been happy with as a solo expedition truck if difficult trails were involved. I would want 65:1 or lower gear reduction with a standard and 45~50:1
or lower with an automatic for tight trails. Horsepower isn't a factor with gearing on tight stuff. H/P comes into play in mud and sand. You need enough HP to get keep
wheels moving through mud and sand but very little to crawl rocks if you're running a 75:1 or lower low range. Off road 300hp is an overkill with cruiser drivetrain.
I've broken over a dozen birfields, including aftermarket with the stock 6 cylinder. I've broke 5 semifloat rear axle shafts , 2 with the stock six, three with a mild 200hp V-8
including a pair of Summers Bros chromoly shafts. I've broke a pair of full float shafts and two pinions with that same mild V-8. The six cylinder had an non US 5:1
first and a 3:1 tcase. The V-8 had an automatic and either a 2:7 or 3:1 tcase , depending how I had it set up at the time. If your dream is running a 450 hp LS
in a cruiser you better look at some built up Dana 60s stuffed with 300m CTM shafts or just plan on keeping it on gravel roads and the street. Otherwise carry a lot of spares.
That said, I drive a built 60, not because it will outperform my 40 on tight trails but because there's room for gear and my 100lb dog. I just choose my destinations
more carefully in a wagon vs 40. The 80 was a bit too wide. I couldn't keep door skins and fenders intact

 

[SaturnAscends]

I great off road vehicle is built not bought. The stock 40 is limited by it's suspension, gearing and manual steering. The gearing is better in the non USA models
but I still prefer lower. If you do a good job on those three, the 40 wins. I've owned 40s, 55, 60s 80s but only considered the 40 for rock crawling competition.
The early mini trucks did well also. Big problem with 60s and 80s is over the hood visibility and sheet metal exposure in tight trails, the 80 more so than the 60.
Until buggies began to rule it was the Jeep and 40 style vehicle that dominated the competition rock crawls. There's never been a stock vehicle sold in the USA
that I would have been happy with as a solo expedition truck if difficult trails were involved. I would want 65:1 or lower gear reduction with a standard and 45~50:1
or lower with an automatic for tight trails. Horsepower isn't a factor with gearing on tight stuff. H/P comes into play in mud and sand. You need enough HP to get keep
wheels moving through mud and sand but very little to crawl rocks if you're running a 75:1 or lower low range. Off road 300hp is an overkill with cruiser drivetrain.
I've broken over a dozen birfields, including aftermarket with the stock 6 cylinder. I've broke 5 semifloat rear axle shafts , 2 with the stock six, three with a mild 200hp V-8
including a pair of Summers Bros chromoly shafts. I've broke a pair of full float shafts and two pinions with that same mild V-8. The six cylinder had an non US 5:1
first and a 3:1 tcase. The V-8 had an automatic and either a 2:7 or 3:1 tcase , depending how I had it set up at the time. If your dream is running a 450 hp LS
in a cruiser you better look at some built up Dana 60s stuffed with 300m CTM shafts or just plan on keeping it on gravel roads and the street. Otherwise carry a lot of spares.
That said, I drive a built 60, not because it will outperform my 40 on tight trails but because there's room for gear and my 100lb dog. I just choose my destinations
more carefully in a wagon vs 40. The 80 was a bit too wide. I couldn't keep door skins and fenders intact

Wow, you must be doing some pretty hardcore trails with a lot of traction to be breaking that many birfs. I saw a cool build over on ExpoPortal of a 45 series body on an 80 series chassis with 40s and a 5.3 Vortec, and he said the driveline had been shockingly reliable for him. Granted he did have 300 mm shafts in the front.

Have you broken many diffs and axles on your 80s? IIRC the 60 series used mini truck birfs up front but had a nice beefy 9.5” diff, so the former must be the weak link. In the 80 series I’d think the HP 8” front would be the first thing to break but I’m not sure..

Anyway I really wish my 96 Tacoma had a proper solid axle under it like the old minitrucks. Toyota really struggled to build a robust IFS set up after abandoning the sold front axles from what I’ve seen.

 

[pb4ugo]

Wow, you must be doing some pretty hardcore trails with a lot of traction to be breaking that many birfs. I saw a cool build over on ExpoPortal of a 45 series body on an 80 series chassis with 40s and a 5.3 Vortec, and he said the driveline had been shockingly reliable for him. Granted he did have 300 mm shafts in the front.

Have you broken many diffs and axles on your 80s? IIRC the 60 series used mini truck birfs up front but had a nice beefy 9.5” diff, so the former must be the weak link. In the 80 series I’d think the HP 8” front would be the first thing to break but I’m not sure..

Anyway I really wish my 96 Tacoma had a proper solid axle under it like the old minitrucks. Toyota really struggled to build a robust IFS set up after abandoning the sold front axles from what I’ve seen.

Stk Birfs are easy to break, all you need to do is put a locker in the frt. It's not if it will break its when. The 8" frt survives because it's high pinion, which makes it slightly stronger than a low pinion. The 9.5 3rd is only as strong as the pinion shaft or center pin.

From my experience, @lcwizard is spot on. I was a member of a local offroad club, mostly compromised of jeep cj's, yj's tj's and one FJ40. We would trail ride mostly east coast, KY TN, and NC. Periodically a larger or full sized 4x4 would show up to trail ride. At the end of the day the larger 4x4's would be a little shorter or narrower or both from when it started. East coast wheeling is a little different than west coast. We usually have a little moisture in frt of the obstacles, so we have to build for that. Driver experience and knowing how you vehicle will react is the key. Cj7,s and yj,s were more flexible than my 40, so my lines would be completely different than theirs'. I lost interest with the club when the tj,s showed up. They were what we called credit card 4 wheelers. We would have to babysit them. They'd pay someone to add bolt on stuff to their rigs. The vehicle was more capable than their skills. I never really cared what vehicle you drove, it is more important who you wheel with.

 

[SaturnAscends]

Stk Birfs are easy to break, all you need to do is put a locker in the frt. It's not if it will break its when. The 8" frt survives because it's high pinion, which makes it slightly stronger than a low pinion. The 9.5 3rd is only as strong as the pinion shaft or center pin.

From my experience, @lcwizard is spot on. I was a member of a local offroad club, mostly compromised of jeep cj's, yj's tj's and one FJ40. We would trail ride mostly east coast, KY TN, and NC. Periodically a larger or full sized 4x4 would show up to trail ride. At the end of the day the larger 4x4's would be a little shorter or narrower or both from when it started. East coast wheeling is a little different than west coast. We usually have a little moisture in frt of the obstacles, so we have to build for that. Driver experience and knowing how you vehicle will react is the key. Cj7,s and yj,s were more flexible than my 40, so my lines would be completely different than theirs'. I lost interest with the club when the tj,s showed up. They were what we called credit card 4 wheelers. We would have to babysit them. They'd pay someone to add bolt on stuff to their rigs. The vehicle was more capable than their skills. I never really cared what vehicle you drove, it is more important who you wheel with.

Hm, well I’m guessing Toyota must have beefed up their birfs/CVs after the 60 series, since I rarely hear of them breaking on the 80 series. Even on the 100 series the CVs rarely break: for better or worse the 8” front diffs seems to be the fuse.

 

[Greek Cruiserhead]

40 series always ends up on its wheels =D

L'aventure commence en Ardèche!

 

[lcwizard]

Hm, well I’m guessing Toyota must have beefed up their birfs/CVs after the 60 series, since I rarely hear of them breaking on the 80 series. Even on the 100 series the CVs rarely break: for better or worse the 8” front diffs seems to be the fuse.

The 60 series birfs I've broken as many times as 40. Even the chromoly versions. The 80 birfs are much larger and harder to break but I've snapped the front axle shafts
which are the same on 40, 60 and 80 unless you go to the aftermarket. The cruiser uses 1.3" axles. A Dana 60 is 1.5. The torque rating of a 30spline 1.3 is about 6200 ft/lb
The torque rating for a 35 spline 1.5 is about 9500 lbs using same standard axle materials.
80 birfs were upgraded for the HP and weight increases.

 

[lcwizard]

Rocks in the SW have nearly perfect traction and then you get those undercut ledges and rock walls.
If I included the birfields that we broke in the old ARCA Rock Crawl competitions, that number would triple.
I remember an event at the hammers where we broke six CV Unlimited moly birfs in a span of four hours
then broke two more Marfields ( Marlin's early stuff ). This was late 90s when the 300m options like Bobby Long's
birfs weren't perfected yet. A lot of inovation came out of the ARCA and BFG Rock Crawl events, including
a lot of tire tech. I remember when BFG showed up with a new set of tires that hadn't been fully siped. They passed then
out to the top contenders with siping tools and said "find what works". The results became the BFG KM series Mud terrains.

 

[SaturnAscends]

Rocks in the SW have nearly perfect traction and then you get those undercut ledges and rock walls.
If I included the birfields that we broke in the old ARCA Rock Crawl competitions, that number would triple.
I remember an event at the hammers where we broke six CV Unlimited moly birfs in a span of four hours
then broke two more Marfields ( Marlin's early stuff ). This was late 90s when the 300m options like Bobby Long's
birfs weren't perfected yet. A lot of inovation came out of the ARCA and BFG Rock Crawl events, including
a lot of tire tech. I remember when BFG showed up with a new set of tires that hadn't been fully siped. They passed then
out to the top contenders with siping tools and said "find what works". The results became the BFG KM series Mud terrains.

It’s too bad we never got there GW and GU Patrols over here. They’re renowned in Australia and elsewhere for their peerless driveline strength in stock form amongst passenger vehicles.

An 80 series with longs/chroms would be pretty unstoppable too I imagine, but then you’d probably have to start worrying about the HP 8”.