3b Intercooler Install - need help with unexpected results (1 Viewer)

[Sykoslug]

I had a shop install an intercooler on my Fj- w/ 3B turbo'd and I have run into a few problems that I hope I can get some clarity on.

-PROBLEM:I used get boost to about 15psi MAX under acceleration on the flat and between 5-7psi cruising around, now I can barely get 5 psi full throttle and power is obviously down.

-I decided to make this upgrade just after some engine work. I was getting my head gasket replaced (the one that blew was the wrong/old style fiber gasket w/steel rings; now replaced w/ MLS gasket), having a rocker arm replaced, new valve seals, pre-cups, and refurbed the fuel injectors. All of that work was completed and truck was running, but the original turbo (minus intercooler) wasn't test-driven. Also, prior to identifying that I had a blown head gasket I adjusted the timing to the stock match marks from being slightly retarded ...thinking I had a fuel issue (etc etc long story) - (having it retarded: yielded significant gains in low end torque, increased boost, tolerable EGT's [max 1100], and great driveability as noted above where I stated the problem)

Here's what I have done to eliminate variables.

1) I have checked for boost leaks and found none. The system holds pressure, no leaks in the plumbing.
2) Disconnected wastegate to rule out early/excessive wastegate action - still no boost over 5 psi
3) Increased fuel/decreased fuel - no impact on boost; slight increase in power.

What I know about adding plumbing and intercooler:
1) May loose 1-2 PSI because of additional volume w/intercooler and plumbing.
2) Decreased air intake temps and EGT's
3) Added power because of #2 (increased air density)

***this is why I'm puzzled - too much of #1 and none of #2 and 3, and it is simply "worse" than before adding the intercooler***

Next steps I have considered to get back lost power:
1)Retard timing to where it was pre-engine work.
2) Eliminate intercooler and re-set to pre-engine work turbo configuration [sad option as I just paid for this]
3) Drive Landcruiser over cliff - one last burst of speed

I hope someone with more knowledge can offer ideas, consolation, or anything at all to help get the ol cruiser cruising again.

Links to pictures:
Intercooler Pic
Plumbing Drivers Side
Plumbing Passenger Side

 

[Splangy]

Are you sure you have everything sealed up? It sure sounds like you have a leak.

 

[coldtaco]

How wide is the intercooler? Check for blockage in intercooler? Too big of an intercooler? Did you increase boost?

 

[Sykoslug]

Are you sure you have everything sealed up? It sure sounds like you have a leak.

My leak test was done using bungs to seal plumbing from turbo outlet to intake. With a standard air tool connection threaded into the bung on the intake side, I gradually pressurized the system to 40psi then listened for leaks. At first the blow off valve was leaking, so I eliminated it from the system and used a straight pipe to replace it.

Retested it, no leaks - system held 40psi without leaking down.

Reassembled then test drove. No boost past 5psi.

I'm tempted to thread a valve into the system to test it that way instead.

 

[Sykoslug]

How wide is the intercooler? Check for blockage in intercooler? Too big of an intercooler? Did you increase boost?

Intercooler is 24 inches wide.
Here's the one I used: intercooler

Ran tests on road wit my waste gate disconnected - closed

 

[gerg]

If it's connected to a pressurized air source and it holds pressure the air source can easily overcome a leak, and I rarely ever hear leaks personally. I use a smoldering smoke pen used to check air leaks around outlets and light switches from the hardwear store, or a cigarette will do, but I'm a nurse so just don't inhale it. A forced air respirator will suffice as protection. I just look for disturbances of the smoke stream to identify the leaks. Your issue screams of leaks. More connections = exponentially greater odds of having larger or multiple leaks. Soapy water works in a pinch, but you can see the absolutely tinyest boost leaks with smoke.

Collapsing intake pipe is possible too but usually that is less consistent with its dysfunction.

 

[Sykoslug]

If it's connected to a pressurized air source and it holds pressure the air source can easily overcome a leak, and I rarely ever hear leaks personally. I use a smoldering smoke pen used to check air leaks around outlets and light switches from the hardwear store, or a cigarette will do, but I'm a nurse so just don't inhale it. A forced air respirator will suffice as protection. I just look for disturbances of the smoke stream to identify the leaks. Your issue screams of leaks. More connections = exponentially greater odds of having larger or multiple leaks. Soapy water works in a pinch, but you can see the absolutely tinyest boost leaks with smoke.

Collapsing intake pipe is possible too but usually that is less consistent with its dysfunction.

Hi Greg,
This is the install I've been waiting for...after all that tuning I did last summer the truck was running sweet....then I blew the HG (old style fiber composite NOT MLS)....so I took it in to get the HG replaced w/MLS one, and while they were in there had some SS pre-cups put in my 2 year old head; replaced one rocker arm, and pushrod; and plumbed in the intercooler.

With that many changes I'm hoping it's as simple as a leaky seal --- there are 8 joints per side of this set up...so a good chance that I have a leak. It's reassuring to know that Occam's Razor might hold true in this scenario.

I'll try the smoke test - hook up the system as I did before and see if I can find a culprit.

Cheers!

 

[coldtaco]

when I made my intercooler for the 13B-T I got a intercooler that was only 2" thick, mostly for ease of fitment. So, don't know if your 3" think and the rest of size is too big for your engine. But, yeah that is quite a bit of a pressure loss. I only saw a couple of psi pressure loss when I installed mine, so increased boost If I remember I think I was running about 14-15psi on that engine.

 

[gerg]

Re do your test and let us know. Nothing about your intercooler install seems weird. Be sure to test for leaks in the intercooler itself as well. Fortunately that style intercooler doesn't have to be expensive. If your turbo worked fine before, it will again.
Cheers
g

 

[Sykoslug]

Re do your test and let us know. Nothing about your intercooler install seems weird. Be sure to test for leaks in the intercooler itself as well. Fortunately that style intercooler doesn't have to be expensive. If your turbo worked fine before, it will again.
Cheers
g

I'll Crack into it again ASAP, most likely by tomorrow eve and report back.

Thanks for the tips!!

 

[Sykoslug]

BAD news....on driving to the office this morning at 35mph and accellerating to shift in to 4the gear on flat road, something broke. Heard a bang, clatter, and clinking, some whitish smoke from under the hood. Pulled over shut it down.

No idea yet what it is, but it's going back to the shop from which it came. (Mixed feelings on this).

Boost was at 6 psi (tightened a few hose clamps this morning before heading out) when the event happened, RPM about 2300.

Notably, idle was a bit rough and it felt sluggish with poor throttle response when I started it this a.m., and egt's pre turbo were as high as 800deg, on neighborhood roads.

 

[gerg]

Gahh. That's nasty. Good call on taking it to the shop. I hope the same shop did all of the engine work too. Hard to say what it could be. I feel for you man. It's not much of a consolation, but it is just an engine. They can be replaced. I've been there many times. Take a step back and put the gas can down....

 

[Sykoslug]

Gahh. That's nasty. Good call on taking it to the shop. I hope the same shop did all of the engine work too. Hard to say what it could be. I feel for you man. It's not much of a consolation, but it is just an engine. They can be replaced. I've been there many times. Take a step back and put the gas can down....

I appreciate it!
I'm trying to stay cool and wait for the mechanic to figure out what went awry.

Sadly I invested heavily in an engine rebuild two years ago....so I'm pretty deep in the home if this engine needs replacing. I think I would not put a 3b back in it. Maybe an old cummins, or isuzu 4bt.... at this point it is wait and see.

PS the gas can is locked safely away...

 

[RufusTheDufus]

Forgive my ignorance but what's a bung and how did you use it to close your intake valves so the intake could be pressurized for the leakdown test?

 

[Sykoslug]

Forgive my ignorance but what's a bung and how did you use it to close your intake valves so the intake could be pressurized for the leakdown test?

Bung=plug of a generic nature

I used pvc pipe end caps that fit inside the intercooler plumbing. Disconnected the plumbing at the turbo and the intake, then used a compressor to pressurize the plumbing and intercooler to check for air leaks.

 

[Sykoslug]

Gahh. That's nasty. Good call on taking it to the shop. I hope the same shop did all of the engine work too. Hard to say what it could be. I feel for you man. It's not much of a consolation, but it is just an engine. They can be replaced. I've been there many times. Take a step back and put the gas can down....

UPDATE: coolant entered the crankcase. It's path has not been determined yet. It is not hydrolocked. Mechanic will continue diagnosis Wednesday.

The big question is: is the failure related to the new HG, precups, rocker arm and pushrod OR did the next weak link give out?

I have a nagging feeling that the valve timing was adjusted incorrectly, and caused the malfunction.

 

[gerg]

Valve timing or valve lash?

 

[Sykoslug]

Valve timing or valve lash?

Valve lash....pump timing wasn't changed.

 

[RufusTheDufus]

UPDATE: coolant entered the crankcase. It's path has not been determined yet. ...
The big question is: is the failure related to the new HG, precups, rocker arm and pushrod OR did the next weak link give out?

I have a nagging feeling that the valve timing was adjusted incorrectly, and caused the malfunction.

Was your head resurfaced too? Valve lash would need adjusting after resurfacing. Shaving the head makes the push rods act like they grew by the amount taken off the head. But I would be surprised if improperly adjusted valves would cause a coolant leak to the crankcase.

Sometimes the internal oil coolers will leak coolant to the crankcase. Do you know if the oil feed line changed at all when the turbo was rotated for the intercooler? Some people get the turbo's oil feed from the oil cooler area on a 3B. And if that was disturbed it could result in an internal oil leak. This of course doesn't explain the noises and smoke.

Is your turbo water cooled?

 

[Sykoslug]

@ rufus

I don't know if the head was resurfaced.
The turbo is oil cooled and gets oil from the alternator source.

The engine was totally rebuilt 2 years ago, block stripped down, new everything.
New head and components, new cam shaft, valves etc.

Whats odd is the confluence of symptoms: not making normal boost, making high egts, lack of power, at idle felt like it was missing until it was warm.

The morning of the failure, I had tightened the intercooler plumbing, and got 6 psi of boost, then BANG.

After preliminary inspection Turbo appears normal, rocker arms go up and down. Lots of Coolant is in the oil. Appears To Have 1 Cylinder NOT firing.

More to follow tomorrow, when mechanic gets into it deeper.