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$3+ gas??? Propane the answer?

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by landtoy80, Mar 21, 2004.

  1. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    At what point does propane become cheaper to run than gas?
     
  2. ginericLC

    ginericLC Wagon Wheeler! SILVER Star

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    It probably won't because propane is on the rise too. Non taxed propane is $1.58/gallon here in Idaho right now and taxed unleaded is $1.79. Add the $.32 or so tax to propane and it is more. On the ranch I used to live on in Montana we had a lot of propane trucks (dual fuel). On 89 454 Chevy Xcab LB 4WD mileage was about 11-12 with gas, 8-9 with propane. One advantage was that the truck had more power when running propane.
     
  3. Jonathan_Ferguson

    Jonathan_Ferguson ★ is in the wrong locale SILVER Star

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    Dad has his FZJ80 running on Liquified Petroleum Gas, And as it's cheaper than Petrol the L.P.G. system has payed for it's self. :-* Only problem is the second Petrol Tank was replaced for the Gas Tank, Anyway the Guage for the second Petrol Tank now does the Gas Tank. :)
    Running on L.P.G. there's no Rev Limiter. :flipoff2:
     
  4. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    How much does it cost to convert?
    Is there any rebates from the Fed's when you take a BROWN vehicle and make it GREEN?
    In Colorado, they had CNG. Can a propane convetsion also run on CNG?
    You could then tap into your natural gas line for the house and fill your tank that way. The only problem the FBI will come looking when they see your home heating consumption goes up (drug laws).
     
  5. Junk

    Junk

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    Landtoy80,
    I could be wrong, but I think The Lal, has a dual powered one that he brought with him from the UK. I may be mixing him up with someone else that moved over here from the UK, but maybe he'll pop in here. If not, maybe someone has his email. Also may want to PM Jim Phillips. I don't think his was propane but being in the UK, he may be more familiar with it than most of us.
     
  6. thelal

    thelal

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    Yep! I'm here.

    Bought my 96 here in Colorado and got it converted (dual fuel) for LPG in Scotland when I was over there.
    Wasn't a tough maths decision to make. Put in (US Dollars) $100 one day to fill up. To fill up 100 Litres of LPG was $25 (with some help from some farmers :). LPG at the gas station (paying tax) was 35p/L, farmers 15p/L, unleader 87 p/L (p means pence like cents :)
    Cost approx $1500 to install (100L tank - one lage and one small in underneath tire location) and had to get a spare wheel carrier fab'ed from local farmer/welder boys ($150 and it looks it but has done 'fine' for 5+ years).

    If I was to do it again I'd do (most) of the installation myself
    1) tap all LPG wires into connectors and no splices
    2) get a stainless steel cage for LPG tanks made (no rust!)
    3) get big skid plate on
    4) get LPG directly into manifolds (requires drill/tap) but get much more power than injecting via trottle body (more $)
    5) save $ and get Unichip so have higher power when on LPG and full Toyota spec when back on unleaded (some of the Aussie boys are running that)
    6) save installation $$ but doing most of pipework, cages, fab work yourself and get LPG expert to connect up and tune

    Ensure u get a large enough vaporiser to handle the 4.5L engine as my initial one was too small (very little pep) and had to be replaced. IMPCO are the main manf. in the USA whereas in Euro most of the manfs are out of Italy.

    I guess I get about 10-15% LESS performance and gas mileage while running on LPG but I don't have too much of a lead foot like other drivers. If I need to overtake I'll press the button that switches me back to unleaded, overtake and then switch back (takes 1-2 secs).

    Overall I'm happy with it as it saved a huge chunk of change in the UK while running it (otherwise would have had to sell and even running a diesel TLC is not cheap, as at the pump prices are high).

    Not running on propane here yet in Colorado until unleaded prices goes higher AND propane prices are lower.
    In the US I'm not sure its a 'good' choice as propane prices are not substantially cheaper than unleaded and as pointed out they seem to be raising at the same time (I think due to the fact that propane is now heavily used for home heatin everywhere).
    Not sure if propane here is the same composition as LPG in the UK (need to check that out) as its just BBQ fuel??

    Wonder if I could find a nice farmer locally that could help with fueling?

    Lal
     
  7. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

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    You see - you all laughed the first time I let it be known I ran my 80 on BBQ fuel..

    The system I used was made by IMPCO. Impco is a US company. I don't have their URL but put it in Google and I'm sure it can be found. The reason I chose Impco was that they make a vapouriser that will run OK with a 4.5 litre engine. Most of the European makes won't.

    Personally, I wouldn't inject the LPG directly into the manifolds unless you are a very confident mechanic. Even then, the benefits are marginal. The Impco system mixes the LPG at the intake manifold. If you change the vehicle you can take the LPG system off (you can't if you mess with manifolds)

    You need to get the biggest LPG tank you can (80 litres go in the place of the spare wheel) If you can live with another tank in the boot do it. I had another 120 litres in the boot under a 'false floor'. You will lose power and MPG - between 15 - 20 % down on petrol.

    The costs here make it a good option. 28p per litre for LPG v 80 p per litre for petrol. Do your sums and see it it will pay. All I can say is that it works well. ... Also, look into refueling stations. If you don't have one close to you or you take extended trips away from home you may find it a pita looking for an LPG pump. ... This UK website provides some good info http://www.autogas.co.uk/
     
  8. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

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  9. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

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    Tank in place of the spare
     
  10. Junk

    Junk

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    Thanks theLal and Jim Phillips. Figured since your trucks smelled like burgers and dogs you may pop your head in on this one. :D

    Jim, Didn't you mention one time that you thought there would be a performance increase by doing this too right? Not major, but some?
     
  11. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

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    It's a performance decrease not increase. I've heard that you get an increase in performance if you add propane to the air intake on a diesel - but this is pretty experimental technology at present.
     
  12. Budd

    Budd

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    [quote author=Jim_Phillips link=board=2;threadid=13468;start=msg125617#msg125617 date=1080045785]
    It's a performance decrease not increase. I've heard that you get an increase in performance if you add propane to the air intake on a diesel - but this is pretty experimental technology at present.
    [/quote]

    i've heard of people doing that for years with some of the Cummins and Powerstroke diesels. supposed to give something like a 20% hp increase and a 30% Torque increase
     
  13. thelal

    thelal

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    You can get a performance increase but only if you modify the rig to give it more oomph wheil on LPG. Problem then is when u switch back to petrol it will suck.
    the only way to get teh best of both worlds is to use a Unichip. This will give better performance when running on LPG than while on petrol (as LPG runs hotter). Checkout Vern, Doug, DAvid Zilm, Paul Kelly and others on the 80scool_aus list as they all run LPG systems and lots more info there.
    Checkout http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/unichip/dyno/toyota/80_4_5_lpg.htm which is David Zilm's truck with a Unichip installed.

    Lal
     
  14. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

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    If I could buy petrol for $3 a gallon I wouldn't think of converting to LPG. A gallon of Petrol in the UK is close to $6 - which makes LPG (at $3 a gallon) worth considering.

    In the US you've had cheap fuel a long time. Enjoy $3 a gallon whilst it lasts..
     
  15. Scamper

    Scamper

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    [quote author=landtoy80 link=board=2;threadid=13468;start=msg124660#msg124660 date=1079882843]
    Can a propane convetsion also run on CNG?
    You could then tap into your natural gas line for the house and fill your tank that way.
    [/quote]

    I would imagine you could convert to CNG much like you can convert between CNG and LPG for your stovetop--you just meter in less CNG since it has more energy than LPG.

    However, LPG (liquified petroleum gas) and CNG (compressed natural gas) are two different things when it comes to storage. You can put a lot of LPG in a storage tank becuase the gas liquifies under pressure, thereby consuming much less space in the liquid form (you only pull off the gaseous layer when using the BBQ fuel--some liquid gas vaporizes under the lower pressure caused by use to fill the space back up and repressurize). CNG on the other hand won't liquify, so a tank of CNG will likely get you only far enough from home to be really pissed that you have to walk back :rolleyes:
     
  16. Poser

    Poser Oh...Durka Durka Durka. s-Moderator Supporting Vendor

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    Propane thread...
     
  17. Hltoppr

    Hltoppr

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    Solution for $3 gas....bicycle...

    -H-
     
  18. andrewfarmer

    andrewfarmer

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    Wrong - CNG tanks typically run 2000psi - so they have a LOT of gas in them (litre for litre similar range). But they're also a lot heavier (thicker walls to handle pressure)
     
  19. Grouseman

    Grouseman

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    BIODIESEL is the answer.
     
  20. LukeO

    LukeO

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    absolutely biodiesel

    I agree, biodiesel or natural gas, both can be grown here in the US which would make too much sense which is why it's not being done.

    Only problem is, last time I checked, Specter wanted around $8000.00 for a used 1HD turbo diesel. That's a lot of gas.