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- #21
Thanks Roger, in hindsight I would have gone with a hot rod rebuild from Mosley and still have spent less money. I will check out Voodoo and see if I can afford what they have but will most likely go with something used.
2F Nightmare Saga- Looking For Advice (1 Viewer)
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Thanks Roger, in hindsight I would have gone with a hot rod rebuild from Mosley and still have spent less money. I will check out Voodoo and see if I can afford what they have but will most likely go with something used.
Voodoo Cruisers was very reasonable. Good luck my friend!
What I'm getting at for you doubting Thomases out there is that torquing 30 year old age tempered headbolts that have rough threads into dirty block threads until the torque wrench pops off at the torque spec --- will NOT clamp down the head to the correct clamping pressure no matter how good the torque wrench is.
30 year old head bolts do not behave the same when torquing as new bolts do.
New bolts have polished, perfect, thread faces that travel in the block threads with little friction. They're also slightly more elastic (though not TTY) than 3 decade old bolts that have been heat tempered a million times. Old head bolt threads, even when cleaned with a brush have tiny imperfections due to corrosion and carbon deposits that create a lot of friction during final torquing. Enough friction to cause the torque wrench to pop off at 96 ft-lbs too soon.
But no need to take my word for it, just try torquing a brand new head bolt into a tap chased block thread and feel what happens - the bolt tightens much farther down due to less friction than an old bolt and when you multiply that increased clamping force by 15 head bolts, the difference in clamping force of the head to the block is significant. Not only is it significant, it's the correct pressure.
While I agree that an inadequately clamped head leading to headgasket failure (3 times) due to insufficient headbolt clamping caused by dirty old bolts is unlikely, (or because the bolts were never retightened) the possibility exists.
If old bolts caused inadequate head clamping the first time due to excessive friction, there's no reason to expect them to not do it again and and again and again (until kingdom come).
Which is why I mentioned it in the first place.
30 year old head bolts do not behave the same when torquing as new bolts do.
New bolts have polished, perfect, thread faces that travel in the block threads with little friction. They're also slightly more elastic (though not TTY) than 3 decade old bolts that have been heat tempered a million times. Old head bolt threads, even when cleaned with a brush have tiny imperfections due to corrosion and carbon deposits that create a lot of friction during final torquing. Enough friction to cause the torque wrench to pop off at 96 ft-lbs too soon.
But no need to take my word for it, just try torquing a brand new head bolt into a tap chased block thread and feel what happens - the bolt tightens much farther down due to less friction than an old bolt and when you multiply that increased clamping force by 15 head bolts, the difference in clamping force of the head to the block is significant. Not only is it significant, it's the correct pressure.
While I agree that an inadequately clamped head leading to headgasket failure (3 times) due to insufficient headbolt clamping caused by dirty old bolts is unlikely, (or because the bolts were never retightened) the possibility exists.
If old bolts caused inadequate head clamping the first time due to excessive friction, there's no reason to expect them to not do it again and and again and again (until kingdom come).
Which is why I mentioned it in the first place.
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- Thread starter
- #24
Thanks OSS. I tried to use quality components for the rebuild and do it right so I did have new head bolts for the re-build.
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I've never bought new head bolts for a Cruiser motor before, done probably 20 engines now and haven't had an issue
As soon as I read, 'Jasper 
Engine', I knew where this was headed...
I had the 2F in my 60 rebuilt years ago by MAFs Machinist/Engine Builder. I was in the shop quite a bit and he had an engine with exactly your issue: A Jasper that was fooked up from too many cuts and blowing HGs. His solution was to shim the Head Bolts with washers and I *think* he trimmed the dowels, too. All this certainly was after quite a bit of math and measuring checking with MAF to see if this was something the customer actually wanted to try with the engine. I have no idea how it worked out (or not). He seemed to think it would be ok and he had built a lot of the Hi-Po MAF engines.
I remember Martin saying that fortunately, that one didn't have the crankshaft Flywheel Flange end cut too much so the Rear Main Seal didn't leak. Common with Jasper Engines'.
If you and your buddy are doing the labor yourselves, and not paying shop time, might be worth a shot if out of pocket is just washers and a gasket (even a custom one), but I do think you'll be better off both time and money if you can source a good 2F vs sinking more money into a problem motor.
Additionally, you mention about the rockers not getting sufficient oil (seized! )... That could be from improper Cam Shaft bearing install or are the rocker towers in the right spot ??
Good luck. Hope you work it out.
Just wanted to add, a few hours from you in Maryland is @ToyotaMatt and I believe he builds engines ? VintageTEqParts.com
Engine', I knew where this was headed...I had the 2F in my 60 rebuilt years ago by MAFs Machinist/Engine Builder. I was in the shop quite a bit and he had an engine with exactly your issue: A Jasper that was fooked up from too many cuts and blowing HGs. His solution was to shim the Head Bolts with washers and I *think* he trimmed the dowels, too. All this certainly was after quite a bit of math and measuring checking with MAF to see if this was something the customer actually wanted to try with the engine. I have no idea how it worked out (or not). He seemed to think it would be ok and he had built a lot of the Hi-Po MAF engines.
I remember Martin saying that fortunately, that one didn't have the crankshaft Flywheel Flange end cut too much so the Rear Main Seal didn't leak. Common with Jasper Engines'.
If you and your buddy are doing the labor yourselves, and not paying shop time, might be worth a shot if out of pocket is just washers and a gasket (even a custom one), but I do think you'll be better off both time and money if you can source a good 2F vs sinking more money into a problem motor.
Additionally, you mention about the rockers not getting sufficient oil (seized! )... That could be from improper Cam Shaft bearing install or are the rocker towers in the right spot ??
Good luck. Hope you work it out.
Just wanted to add, a few hours from you in Maryland is @ToyotaMatt and I believe he builds engines ? VintageTEqParts.com
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Is this a multi layer steel gasket? What do the head bolts look like? Can you mock assemble the head in block with no gasket? You can use Fuji paper to check the interface between the two under clamping.
There's about a million ways to go about this.
The block and head were decked? Or are you unsure? Do you have any pictures of any of these parts to try and help?
I've never see one of these engines apart before so pictures would help.
And you are 100% certain there is nothing wrong with the water circuit that would cause overheating?
Mike
There's about a million ways to go about this.
The block and head were decked? Or are you unsure? Do you have any pictures of any of these parts to try and help?
I've never see one of these engines apart before so pictures would help.
And you are 100% certain there is nothing wrong with the water circuit that would cause overheating?
Mike
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no they are the old school composite graphite gasket
- Thread starter
- #29
I am going to look at a 2f later today. It is still in a truck and can be started. Besides a compression test and hearing it run, is there anything else I should look for?
Thanks again for everyone's help and kind words!
Thanks again for everyone's help and kind words!
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make sure it's got oil in it
Ideally it would still have full smog gear, an Aisin carb and generally be pretty dirty, like it hasn’t been out of the truck ever.
If it runs well, doesn’t knock or smoke and you can test drive the truck, I wouldn’t waste my time on a compression test.
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- #32
I know it is de-smogged, but so is my truck so I think that is good (?)
NeverGiveUpYota
Dare me.
@Onur made a comment previously, I’d take him up on it. He’s prob got some good leads.
Also @shmukster too. He’s in PA.
NeverGiveUpYota
Dare me.
I’m wagering a guess that in NJ you don’t need to worry about it being inspected? If so then no need to be too concerned w/ it being smog legal.
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- #35
I spoke with @Onur this morning and he gave me some great, professional info per usual! I will shoot @shmukster a message to see if he has anything. Thanks!
The suggestion that it still be smogged would be an indicator that it had not been monkeyed with- ever. Whether or not it has smog gear is less the issue and more that it is still an unmolested stock block. Check that it has oil in it, and no signs of water contamination. Check the air cleaner for excessive blowby oil. If you can run it, don’t bother with a comp test, but check that the balancer isn’t weeble wobblin. If none of these things check out, it’s still probably a better base for another rebuild than your clappless block and head combo. I’d recommend only over bore to achieve a square bore; only undergrind the crank to clean the journals, only mill the deck and head for FLATNESS, only use an OEM grind cam, and use 1.50 stainless exhaust valves and 1.82 intake valves with stock spring rate SBC valve springs. HTH
This is what I was suggesting. It was an ideal scenario, but the engine you have a line on might still be fine.
What’s a Jasper motor?
Its what you use to keep your dock from floating away
Jasper Engines & Transmissions - Jasper, IN
Established in 1942. Established in 1942, Jasper Engines and Transmissions has grown into the nation's leading remanufacturer of drivetrain components. JASPER offers many product lines including: gas engines, diesel engines, transmissions, differentials, marine products, performance and...
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Top 98 Reviews From Legit Jasper Engines and Transmissions Buyers
I recently had a rebuilt Jasper engine installed in my '96 Yukon. After driving approximately two weeks and 600 miles, the new engine developed a major oil leak, serious enough ...
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Their actual site
JASPER remanufactured engines, transmissions & differentials
JASPER provides remanufactured gas engines, diesel engines, marine engines, transmissions and more for your car, truck or boat.
www.jasperengines.com
I am sure they are not all bad but there seem to be a lot of bad reports out there. Of course the happy people rarely talk and the unhappy ones tell 10 of their friends.
Junk
