285/75 Help (1 Viewer)

[eizenjin91]

Hello all. I had a shop install an Icon stage 6 kit this week on a new to me 2017 200 series with 285/75R17 Toyo RT and Icon Compression wheels. They did this same thing on another 200 recently with Toyo AT3’s and no problems and have done it on others. Not sure what my issue is. However mine is eating itself on the driver side on the KDSS pretty hard when turning hard and it’s especially bad under wheel lock and reverse such as parking spots etc. I have looked at the Slee kdss bracket and hear lots of bent links and bushings blown out so I’m nixing that idea. The shop is suggesting switching wheels or replacing the KDSS with a tundra sway bar.

Current Icon Wheel Specs:
5.75” BS +25mm offset

Suggested Method Wheel Specs:
4.75” BS 0mm offset

I’m worried that doing this will fix the KDSS rubbing issue but just move it to an issue where it’s rubbing hard on the back of the fender well. I have already trimmed pretty heavily and have no rubbing front bumper or rear fender just the KDSS so don’t want to just move problems around.

Can anyone provide what wheel they are successfully running with 285/75R17’s and not having KDSS rubbing or other rubbing issues? The tundra sway bar replacement seems workable but is a pretty big switch from the factory 200 front end. I’m open to any and all suggestions and experience people have.

Thank you!

 

[bloc]

Have they actually done a tundra bar or are they speculating?

Your rear bar is also KDSS and depends on feedback from the front bar to operate. So by swapping in a thin non-KDSS front you’d not only lose the flat front cornering KDSS provides, you’d be giving up rear sway bar at all unless they have some trick up their sleeve. The LX rear bar mounts on the axle in a totally different way so that isn’t an option either.

Some people successfully run the kdss relocation and avoid bent links or bushing issues by putting the links outboard of the link bucket on the lower arm, using a longer bolt and a sleeve inside the bucket to give support. In theory this makes the system weaker by putting the link mount in single shear vs stock double, but so far no one has had any issues running it this way. And quite a few on this board do.

As for why you are having issues when others didn’t, it seems it comes down to individual alignment variances or more specifically the fact that not all chassis are identical and the arms may need to be in different specific positions to achieve an optimal alignment.. and sometimes this results in contact, but others it doesn’t. Also, the bar can move side to side a bit and in your case it may be more on the left.

You are right to worry about different offset just moving the problem. Plenty have learned that 0 offset is not the fix here. They either need to see whether they can massage the alignment to clear up the contact, or make kdss relocation work with the mentioned outboard configuration. Look up posts by @linuxgod on the topic.

 

[eizenjin91]

Have they actually done a tundra bar or are they speculating?

Your rear bar is also KDSS and depends on feedback from the front bar to operate. So by swapping in a thin non-KDSS front you’d not only lose the flat front cornering KDSS provides, you’d be giving up rear sway bar at all unless they have some trick up their sleeve. The LX rear bar mounts on the axle in a totally different way so that isn’t an option either.

Some people successfully run the kdss relocation and avoid bent links or bushing issues by putting the links outboard of the link bucket on the lower arm, using a longer bolt and a sleeve inside the bucket to give support. In theory this makes the system weaker by putting the link mount in single shear vs stock double, but so far no one has had any issues running it this way. And quite a few on this board do.

As for why you are having issues when others didn’t, it seems it comes down to individual alignment variances or more specifically the fact that not all chassis are identical and the arms may need to be in different specific positions to achieve an optimal alignment.. and sometimes this results in contact, but others it doesn’t. Also, the bar can move side to side a bit and in your case it may be more on the left.

You are right to worry about different offset just moving the problem. Plenty have learned that 0 offset is not the fix here. They either need to see whether they can massage the alignment to clear up the contact, or make kdss relocation work with the mentioned outboard configuration. Look up posts by @linuxgod on the topic.

Yes they’ve done the sway bar swap on their stock rig. I think all your concerns are very valid and 100% correct especially with giving up the idea behind KDSS and the rear/front mismatch. Yeah it definitely seems like a pretty wide variance between different chassis’. Maybe ill start with messing with the alignment and moving the bar if possible and see if I can massage it. Although it’s eating it pretty hard to think I can fix it by moving alignment and the bar to passenger. I’ll look at Linuxgod’s thread thanks for the info on that one for me to check out. I appreciate the in depth info and post and the feedback. Gives me a lot to think about. Thank you!

 

[eizenjin91]

Have they actually done a tundra bar or are they speculating?

Your rear bar is also KDSS and depends on feedback from the front bar to operate. So by swapping in a thin non-KDSS front you’d not only lose the flat front cornering KDSS provides, you’d be giving up rear sway bar at all unless they have some trick up their sleeve. The LX rear bar mounts on the axle in a totally different way so that isn’t an option either.

Some people successfully run the kdss relocation and avoid bent links or bushing issues by putting the links outboard of the link bucket on the lower arm, using a longer bolt and a sleeve inside the bucket to give support. In theory this makes the system weaker by putting the link mount in single shear vs stock double, but so far no one has had any issues running it this way. And quite a few on this board do.

As for why you are having issues when others didn’t, it seems it comes down to individual alignment variances or more specifically the fact that not all chassis are identical and the arms may need to be in different specific positions to achieve an optimal alignment.. and sometimes this results in contact, but others it doesn’t. Also, the bar can move side to side a bit and in your case it may be more on the left.

You are right to worry about different offset just moving the problem. Plenty have learned that 0 offset is not the fix here. They either need to see whether they can massage the alignment to clear up the contact, or make kdss relocation work with the mentioned outboard configuration. Look up posts by @linuxgod on the topic.

Would switching to something like the alphaequipt/method +35mm offset possibly/likely solve this? Seems like it’s more ideal but not sure if it’s enough more ideal? Or just go with the KDSS relocation, outside bracket bolting, and bds links? Thanks @bloc!

 

[bloc]

Would switching to something like the alphaequipt/method +35mm offset possibly/likely solve this? Seems like it’s more ideal but not sure if it’s enough more ideal? Or just go with the KDSS relocation, outside bracket bolting, and bds links? Thanks @bloc!

IIRC linuxgod is using stock links outboard and they work fine so I don’t know that BDS is required.

Keep in mind +35 will move the wheel 10mm closer to the KDSS arm, so that’s the wrong direction. It will provide more clearance to the front and rear of the fender though.

I would definitely advocate trying to figure out KDSS. Your rig just got taller which means body roll will be even more pronounced. Having the thick KDSS bars is a huge advantage. If they eliminated it in the front ask what they did in the rear.. not necessarily that you want this, I’m just curious what the solution is.

 

[linuxgod]

You can run 285/75R17 (34x11.5) without interference with +25 offset wheels for sure. I can go into detail but it sounds like your issue is the driver's side KDSS. You might also have slight rub on the passenger's side sway bar as well but just not notice it as it won't contact quite the same as the driver's side. There are 2 potential fixes here.

1. Dial in less caster in your alignment. This is an easy fix but the cons are that less caster means you may wander a bit more on the highway, and if your caster is too low you may contact the body mount in the rear of the wheel well, which then requires a BMC.
2. My preferred solution is to just do the KDSS relocation. Total cost is about $100 and a couple hours of work to do it right, or $75 to do it quick. Read on.

As to #2 there are 3 ways to do it. Here they are, each progressively more work but also progressively better results:

1. I went with the KDSS relo and I don't rub at all even at full lock. I used the @TRAIL TAILOR KDSS relo kit which was about $75. The KDSS relo are just plates with four holes (two tapped for the sway bar mount, two recessed holes to mount the plate to the frame). That shifts your sway bar about an inch forward. You'll need some ratchet straps and a long prying bar to maneuver everything into place. The downside of the relo kit is that your end links end up "leaning" which twists the rubber bushing and will cause them to wear quickly. But, there's a fix for this...
2. What I did to reduce the angle of the end links was to mount the sway bar end links *outside* of their cradle in the LCA instead of inside it. Inside the cradle you use a 1.5" deep aluminum spacer to provide rigidity. You'll need longer bolts for this, and possibly a grade 10.9 washer - I reused my front differential bolts and trimmed an inch or so off the end as I have a diff drop kit so they were in my spare parts box, but you could alternately buy a pair.
3. The above still leaves your end links tweaked a bit, but not nearly as badly as without doing the "outer cradle mount" described above. The best option is actually to skip #1 (sorry Jason) and buy some 2"x7"x5/8" thick aluminum blocks for $25 and then drill and tap them yourself. If you do this you can actually move the new mounting holes another 1/2" or so forward, which should allow you to run a 35" tire without KDSS interference. It also has the benefit of correctly realigning your end links so they're properly vertical again.

For the record I did #1 and #2. I have aluminum blocks for me to do #3 at some point, but it's getting cold and my garage is uninsulated and since I'm not actually rubbing on 34" tires anyway I probably won't do this until spring.

 

[linuxgod]

Have they actually done a tundra bar or are they speculating?


Yes they’ve done the sway bar swap on their stock rig. I think all your concerns are very valid and 100% correct especially with giving up the idea behind KDSS and the rear/front mismatch. Yeah it definitely seems like a pretty wide variance between different chassis’. Maybe ill start with messing with the alignment and moving the bar if possible and see if I can massage it. Although it’s eating it pretty hard to think I can fix it by moving alignment and the bar to passenger. I’ll look at Linuxgod’s thread thanks for the info on that one for me to check out. I appreciate the in depth info and post and the feedback. Gives me a lot to think about. Thank you!

I'm surprised the Tundra sway bar would work, unless you do the Tundra front end suspension swap and put in the longer LCAs. Seems like you'd end up with the sway bar "overshooting" (being wider than) the LCA cradle otherwise.

 

[CharlieS]

You can run 285/75R17 (34x11.5) without interference with +25 offset wheels for sure. I can go into detail but it sounds like your issue is the driver's side KDSS. You might also have slight rub on the passenger's side sway bar as well but just not notice it as it won't contact quite the same as the driver's side. There are 2 potential fixes here.

1. Dial in less caster in your alignment. This is an easy fix but the cons are that less caster means you may wander a bit more on the highway, and if your caster is too low you may contact the body mount in the rear of the wheel well, which then requires a BMC.
2. My preferred solution is to just do the KDSS relocation. Total cost is about $100 and a couple hours of work to do it right, or $75 to do it quick. Read on.

As to #2 there are 3 ways to do it. Here they are, each progressively more work but also progressively better results:

1. I went with the KDSS relo and I don't rub at all even at full lock. I used the @TRAIL TAILOR KDSS relo kit which was about $75. The KDSS relo are just plates with four holes (two tapped for the sway bar mount, two recessed holes to mount the plate to the frame). That shifts your sway bar about an inch forward. You'll need some ratchet straps and a long prying bar to maneuver everything into place. The downside of the relo kit is that your end links end up "leaning" which twists the rubber bushing and will cause them to wear quickly. But, there's a fix for this...
2. What I did to reduce the angle of the end links was to mount the sway bar end links *outside* of their cradle in the LCA instead of inside it. Inside the cradle you use a 1.5" deep aluminum spacer to provide rigidity. You'll need longer bolts for this, and possibly a grade 10.9 washer - I reused my front differential bolts and trimmed an inch or so off the end as I have a diff drop kit so they were in my spare parts box, but you could alternately buy a pair.
3. The above still leaves your end links tweaked a bit, but not nearly as badly as without doing the "outer cradle mount" described above. The best option is actually to skip #1 (sorry Jason) and buy some 2"x7"x5/8" thick aluminum blocks for $25 and then drill and tap them yourself. If you do this you can actually move the new mounting holes another 1/2" or so forward, which should allow you to run a 35" tire without KDSS interference. It also has the benefit of correctly realigning your end links so they're properly vertical again.

For the record I did #1 and #2. I have aluminum blocks for me to do #3 at some point, but it's getting cold and my garage is uninsulated and since I'm not actually rubbing on 34" tires anyway I probably won't do this until spring.

For #3 will aluminum handle the forces involved? While not as fun to work with, I'd propose using steel blocks. Then again, I haven't done this, so I am talking about something I know nothing about... What material are the Slee and Trail Tailor blocks made from?

 

[linuxgod]

For #3 will aluminum handle the forces involved? While not as fun to work with, I'd propose using steel blocks. Then again, I haven't done this, so I am talking about something I know nothing about... What material are the Slee and Trail Tailor blocks made from?

I think Slee may be steel. Trail Tailor is definitely aluminum. So far mine (along with the end link mounting) has held up fine for ~9-10k miles. The aluminum is bolted directly to the frame, and the sway bar bolts to that. I'd wager so long as everything is torqued down tight it'll continue to withstand the forces just fine, but yes you could build your own using steel blocks, the only difference if you're going to fab it yourself is the effort to drill and tap them.

FWIW I suspect the kits out there (I think there are a few others out of Australia too) do the 1" relo because if you leave the end links in the cradle they do get tweaked quite a bit, and 1.5" might be excessive. The idea of mounting them outside the cradle isn't new (@Willy beamin did it years ago) but not many have followed so it's a fairly unknown solution. There's probably some $ in it for someone like Trail Tailor to make a 1.5" relo kit (it's just a slightly larger block and moving the threaded holes another 0.5" forward) and include two 1.5" spacers and two of the right strength/length/thread pitch bolts.

Bar stock ordered from speedymetals.com:

Product​	Quantity​	Length​	Sub Total:​
5/8" {A} x 2" {B} 6061-T6511 Aluminum Flat, Extruded-By the Inch SKU: 61f.625x2 Cutting Tolerance: Plus 1/8", Minus 0​	2​	7​	$14.00​

Spacers ordered from keysermanufacturing.com. I can't recall but I might've opened up the ID hole slightly to work with the M14 bolt since 1.2" is ~12.7mm but M14 are 14mm...

Product	Quantity	Price
1-1/2" O.D x 1/2" I.D. Aluminum Spacers - 1-1/2"	2	$9.00

I previously posted the bolt info here (m14-1.5 fine thread approx 100mm long... no idea what grade you should use though and you might want to buy 120mm and cut them down as I'm not 100% sure that 100mm is long enough, but I'm almost positive that 120mm is too long):

SQOD Squad - Stupid Question Of the Day

For those who have relocated their sway bar end links to the outside of the LCA anyone either know the original dimensions of the bolt that is used to hold the sway bar end links in place or the correct length for a new longer bolt...

forum.ih8mud.com

Boltdepot.com has some grade 8.8 and 10.9 bolts for $4.13 and $5.54 each (though the latter is out of stock). You'll need some matching washers which are <$0.50 each:

Bolt Depot - Metric hex bolts, Zinc plated class 8.8 steel, 14mm x 1.5mm x 100mm

www.boltdepot.com

Bolt Depot - Metric hex bolts, Zinc plated class 10.9 steel, 14mm x 1.5mm x 100mm

www.boltdepot.com

Then again if you're going to cut them down, just go buy the genuine Toyota front diff bolts and use those, I suppose:

90105-14175 Genuine Toyota Bolt, Flange

ToyotaPartsDeal.com offers the great deal for genuine Toyota parts 90105-14175 (9010514175) Bolt, Flange for $5.69. All parts are backed by the Toyota's warranty.

www.toyotapartsdeal.com

Anyway... $35 in parts, plus probably as much in shipping, plus a bit of labor to drill and tap the aluminum block (or steel, if you prefer, which is probably cheaper anyway).

 

[bloc]

Does KDSS cylinder clearance turn into an issue at any point? I know with the extra down travel from my kings even with the bar in the stock location the bolt at the front of the arm contacts a body mount bolt when the driver front tire is dropped all the way out.

 

[eizenjin91]

@linuxgod insanely helpful! Thank you so much! Especially going through and linking all the suppliers and info and so much detail. I decided to just go ahead and do it the right way first time. Ordered the plate to tap and drill (I did go steel. Just personal preference.) and got the hardware coming as well. Sounds like this will fix all the issues and have no problems at all. I love 285/75’s and really didn’t want to reduce it to a 33. I’ve also already had BMC done on this so it’s got tons of clearance in that area. Thank you buddy!!

 

[DesmoPilot]

I am running +35 Alpha Equipt wheels with Toyo ATIII in 285/75-17 and have zero rubbing. I haven't done any trimming, but did heat mold the mudflap. I don't have any rubbing on KDSS either.

I personally believe alignment plays a big part in getting everything to fit. I adjusted the lower control arm eccentric bolts to move the axle line forward. Then had the alignment shop finish the alignment using the upper control arms(Icons in my case). It's working in perfect harmony here.

 

[linuxgod]

@linuxgod insanely helpful! Thank you so much! Especially going through and linking all the suppliers and info and so much detail. I decided to just go ahead and do it the right way first time. Ordered the plate to tap and drill (I did go steel. Just personal preference.) and got the hardware coming as well. Sounds like this will fix all the issues and have no problems at all. I love 285/75’s and really didn’t want to reduce it to a 33. I’ve also already had BMC done on this so it’s got tons of clearance in that area. Thank you buddy!!

Heh if you did a BMC then you could trade up to 35’s after this

 

[TeCKis300]

@linuxgod insanely helpful! Thank you so much! Especially going through and linking all the suppliers and info and so much detail. I decided to just go ahead and do it the right way first time. Ordered the plate to tap and drill (I did go steel. Just personal preference.) and got the hardware coming as well. Sounds like this will fix all the issues and have no problems at all. I love 285/75’s and really didn’t want to reduce it to a 33. I’ve also already had BMC done on this so it’s got tons of clearance in that area. Thank you buddy!!

Between the KDSS relocation and BMC, sounds like your rig will be ready for full fat 35x12.5s if you ever have the hankering.