2018 LC rear E-locker and Crawl control what to expect ? (1 Viewer)

Fishinsea

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I shall start by saying I have read all discussions about CC on here and it does touch briefly on this matter of CC w/ rear lockers but then goes off topic in to specifics about 11 different subjects, so I thought I would start a specific thread concerning

" Later 200 series with an E-locker installed "

So real briefly, last year when I got my LC I was gungho on triple locking my ride but took yalls advice and did other things First such as my OME BP-51 lift / SPC UCA's
New wheels and tires now on 18x9 methods and 295/65/18
Full skids underneath
Trail Taylor hidden winch with 12K winch
I'm still on the fence with what skids i will be getting

So now I am going to do a rear E-locker.

What to expect when CC is engaged as well as rear locker ???? this is the real question and hope the discussion does not hop off topic like so many others.

For the most part, the real truth will come from later gen LC owners that have already done the rear locker and to gain their knowledge of the do's and don'ts of this set-up.

I find it doubtful that turn assist will work so that's a given when rear locker is on

But would imagine that rear locker would work without being in 4LO

If there is a direct reference to these questions please let me no and we can delete this thread as not to clog up our threads here

TIA and let the can of worms to be opened now

957278D8-4AA7-416C-8B12-E27D83AB4CDC_1_201_a.jpeg
 
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kcjaz

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Interesting question about CC and rear locker. I’ve always thought you’d do one or the other but not both. I’ll try it on my Taco. It’s never occurred to me to do that. I’m going to guess, it won’t let me.

Turn assist won’t work well with the rear locker locked. You have to take the CDL off for turn assist to work too. It uses the breaks to stop the inside wheel making the truck pivot on that wheel. So all 4 corners need to rotate differently. With the rear locker on, you’d be dragging the outside rear wheel.
 

afgman786

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There are threads that have info on this but its mixed in with a bunch of other rants.

Since your locker is aftermarket you will be to engage in 4hi or 4lo since the car ecu doesn't have communication with your locker the way factory lockers do that require certain criteria to be met before allowing engagement. You are correct that turn assist would not be a smart idea to use with the rear locker engaged.

CC should still work. The way the computer works for that is that it senses slip and applies braking and power to area with no slip. Since both rear wheels will be spinning at same rate there should not be an engagement difference between the 2 rear wheels from CC. Essentially it'll only act on the front 2 wheels.

If we look at CC as an improvement on ATRAC, which is where my above thought comes from. I know on 4runners and tacos with rear lockers, if you lock the rear and turn on ATRAC it does not try to stop either of the rear wheels to differentiate power, but it does act on the front wheels. I have seen this in action a few times, and can only think that CC has to act the same way since the computer is looking for a difference in wheel speed across an axle.
 

tominboise

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There are threads that have info on this but its mixed in with a bunch of other rants.

Since your locker is aftermarket you will be to engage in 4hi or 4lo since the car ecu doesn't have communication with your locker the way factory lockers do that require certain criteria to be met before allowing engagement. You are correct that turn assist would not be a smart idea to use with the rear locker engaged.

CC should still work. The way the computer works for that is that it senses slip and applies braking and power to area with no slip. Since both rear wheels will be spinning at same rate there should not be an engagement difference between the 2 rear wheels from CC. Essentially it'll only act on the front 2 wheels.

If we look at CC as an improvement on ATRAC, which is where my above thought comes from. I know on 4runners and tacos with rear lockers, if you lock the rear and turn on ATRAC it does not try to stop either of the rear wheels to differentiate power, but it does act on the front wheels. I have seen this in action a few times, and can only think that CC has to act the same way since the computer is looking for a difference in wheel speed across an axle.
I believe this is the answer. In a perfect world, maybe there would be less moaning and groaning when you are using CC with the rear locker engaged.
 

kcjaz

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I just went out in the snow a played with this in the Taco. You can certainly lock the rear and run CC. Essentially I think this is running CC only on the front as there is no difference in side to side wheel spin on the rear so CC doesn’t do anything on the rear.

I purposely got my self stuck climbing a mild slope in an open field with about 5” snow in 2WD using just MTS. It did fine until I took momentum out of the equation by slowing way down while climbing out of a ditch onto a road. I switched to 4H while stopped with front almost on the road and rear in the ditch. It locked in but notta. 4L. Notta. CC. Notta. Rear locker. Notta. I expected all of that but was still a little disappointed none of those things got me out. Just to slippery and steep. All I had to do to get out was back up 5’ and use 4H without stopping. All this proves is that all the gizmos can’t fix bad driving decisions like trying to rock crawl on a snowy slope. Sometimes you need activate the “momentum system” by pressing the peddle next to the brake...
 

mcgaskins

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My question is what is the hardest trail you will run in your 200? I’ve seen quite a few people with 16+ trucks say they want lockers, but after extensively wheeling a 16 I struggle to see the payoff of lockers unless you’re doing a trail where 200s don’t belong (aka expect some modicum of body damage). The MTS from 13-15 is good, but it’s truly amazing on the 16+ trucks. There are very situations in which I would have preferred a locker over the 16+ MTS in the past due in large part to the more dynamic nature of the actuation. Often a fully locked axle can push you in directions you don’t want to go because the wheels are spinning at the exact same speed on a slippery, steep and/or off camber surface, but MTS momentarily unlocking then relocking individual brakes via ABS pulses means you can more easily control where you’re going.

In this example, the MTS made the obstacle pretty easy due in large part to the wheels “locking” and “unlocking” rapidly allowing for both traction and steering. Also note it allowed me to make the sharp turn in one maneuver instead of a 2 or 3 point turn if I was locked. I was with 2 fully locked vehicles which both struggled with the same line and took multiple attempts and was much harder on those trucks. I realize it doesn’t look dramatic at all in this video, but that’s what you want when wheeling. Keeping all tires on the ground (watch for the articulation which is impressive due to KDSS) and slow, steady momentum is what you want even if sending it is more entertaining to watch.


This video is the clearest I have showing how the MTS locks and unlocks to allow for maximum control. A rear locker wouldn’t have hurt here, but I am not convinced it would have helped either. There were locked Jeeps on 37s behind us that struggled and struggled, but the 200 walked right up first time.

 
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My question is what is the hardest trail you will run in your 200? I’ve seen quite a few people with 16+ trucks say they want lockers, but after extensively wheeling a 16 I struggle to see the payoff of lockers unless you’re doing a trail where 200s don’t belong (aka expect some modicum of body damage). The MTS from 13-15 is good, but it’s truly amazing on the 16+ trucks. There are very situations in which I would have preferred a locker over the 16+ MTS in the past due in large part to the more dynamic nature of the actuation. Often a fully locked axle can push you in directions you don’t want to go because the wheels are spinning at the exact same speed on a slippery, steep and/or off camber surface, but MTS momentarily unlocking then relocking individual brakes via ABS pulses means you can more easily control where you’re going.

In this example, the MTS made the obstacle pretty easy due in large part to the wheels “locking” and “unlocking” rapidly allowing for both traction and steering. Also note it allowed me to make the sharp turn in one maneuver instead of a 2 or 3 point turn if I was locked. I was with 2 fully locked vehicles which both struggled with the same line and took multiple attempts and was much harder on those trucks. I realize it doesn’t look dramatic at all in this video, but that’s what you want when wheeling. Keeping all tires on the ground (watch for the articulation which is impressive due to KDSS) and slow, steady momentum is what you want even if sending it is more entertaining to watch.


This video is the clearest I have showing how the MTS locks and unlocks to allow for maximum control. A rear locker wouldn’t have hurt here, but I am not convinced it would have helped either. There were locked Jeeps on 37s behind us that struggled and struggled, but the 200 walked right up first time.


Very impressive indeed. Thanks for sharing those videos. Overall thoughts on Ruby vs. the current 200 since they are very similar in build? Also, were you running wheel spacers on Ruby in those videos?
 

Fishinsea

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My question is what is the hardest trail you will run in your 200? I’ve seen quite a few people with 16+ trucks say they want lockers, but after extensively wheeling a 16 I struggle to see the payoff of lockers unless you’re doing a trail where 200s don’t belong (aka expect some modicum of body damage). The MTS from 13-15 is good, but it’s truly amazing on the 16+ trucks. There are very situations in which I would have preferred a locker over the 16+ MTS in the past due in large part to the more dynamic nature of the actuation. Often a fully locked axle can push you in directions you don’t want to go because the wheels are spinning at the exact same speed on a slippery, steep and/or off camber surface, but MTS momentarily unlocking then relocking individual brakes via ABS pulses means you can more easily control where you’re going.

In this example, the MTS made the obstacle pretty easy due in large part to the wheels “locking” and “unlocking” rapidly allowing for both traction and steering. Also note it allowed me to make the sharp turn in one maneuver instead of a 2 or 3 point turn if I was locked. I was with 2 fully locked vehicles which both struggled with the same line and took multiple attempts and was much harder on those trucks. I realize it doesn’t look dramatic at all in this video, but that’s what you want when wheeling. Keeping all tires on the ground (watch for the articulation which is impressive due to KDSS) and slow, steady momentum is what you want even if sending it is more entertaining to watch.


This video is the clearest I have showing how the MTS locks and unlocks to allow for maximum control. A rear locker wouldn’t have hurt here, but I am not convinced it would have helped either. There were locked Jeeps on 37s behind us that struggled and struggled, but the 200 walked right up first time.

For me, the future holds long treks through BC into AK and the beaches of Mexico, I also own a home in Durango CO. I have used the CC many times and I really like it I have only been stuck twice so far and recovery traxs prob would have saved the day on those, I like the idea of having it as a option, this is not a soccer vehicle I have every intention of using this LC to its wits end over the years, I am 55 years old now and I am doing and buying things I have always wanted, everyday is a blessing. Do I need a rear locker ? I'm not sure. Is a rear locker a good option to have in your quiver 100% yes.
 

Fishinsea

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Nice truck, please get sliders too ;). Hate to see you damage it on a trail that requires lockers.
Most definitely getting sliders, just now deciding between Slee and Budbuilt not sure i will be on a trail that requires lockers and I'm not sure you have tried pulling 4 4wheelers and gear on a beach to a fish camp in AK. A locker in the sand when towing is a nice thing to have.
 
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kcjaz

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For 99% of 200 owners in NA, there is nothing really in the category of “need” when it comes to features or mods. It’s all about “want”. Nothing wrong with that. I’ve thought about adding a rear locker someday too. As I am building mine out and using it more off road, for me, the rear locker is becoming a lower priority. There are plenty of other things I NEED first...
 

Fishinsea

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For 99% of 200 owners in NA, there is nothing really in the category of “need” when it comes to features or mods. It’s all about “want”. Nothing wrong with that. I’ve thought about adding a rear locker someday too. As I am building mine out and using it more off road, for me, the rear locker is becoming a lower priority. There are plenty of other things I NEED first...
I agree with the want thing and my intention was to have a locker installed but that took hold because of my winch install, as mentioned above I have been stuck twice now, both times late at night hunting and a winch would have saved me more than lockers in my situation then. Just ordered some Maxtraxs to because with getting dirty and using them when I was stuck would have most likely got me un-stuck.
 

afgman786

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@mcgaskins east coast wheeling warrants lockers to be beneficial. From videos I've seen of moab and the likes I agree with your statement that the MTS is more than smart enough to get you thru it. But when trails out this way get wet the computers can't get you thru some parts and lockers are the only thing that will work in those situations. You need more constant speed at all wheels than MTS or CC can offer sometimes.
 

mcgaskins

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@mcgaskins east coast wheeling warrants lockers to be beneficial. From videos I've seen of moab and the likes I agree with your statement that the MTS is more than smart enough to get you thru it. But when trails out this way get wet the computers can't get you thru some parts and lockers are the only thing that will work in those situations. You need more constant speed at all wheels than MTS or CC can offer sometimes.

I don’t disagree, but I’ve seen quite a few people buying 16+ 200s and locking them before they get out in the field and see what it can do. I personally love lockers and wish there was an OEM rear option like I had in my hundy, but for my uses and I’d wager for 99% of 200 owners’ uses lockers aren’t necessary.


For me, the future holds long treks through BC into AK and the beaches of Mexico, I also own a home in Durango CO. I have used the CC many times and I really like it I have only been stuck twice so far and recovery traxs prob would have saved the day on those, I like the idea of having it as a option, this is not a soccer vehicle I have every intention of using this LC to its wits end over the years, I am 55 years old now and I am doing and buying things I have always wanted, everyday is a blessing. Do I need a rear locker ? I'm not sure. Is a rear locker a good option to have in your quiver 100% yes.

Sounds like some fun adventures ahead! I think the MTS will impress you, but if you’re ever in a situation where you need a locker I’m sure you will be glad to have it.

To your original question, when the rear is locked MTS won’t do anything for the rear axle since both tires will be turning at the same rate, but MTS will work as normal on the front axle. I had a 3rd gen Tacoma with the rear locker and MTS which was a beautiful combo because you can still steer easily unlike when the front is fully locked.

Let us know which setup you go with and how you like it. I see pros and cons to both ARB and Harrop, but I don’t think you can go wrong with either as long as the install is done well.
 

Fishinsea

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I don’t disagree, but I’ve seen quite a few people buying 16+ 200s and locking them before they get out in the field and see what it can do. I personally love lockers and wish there was an OEM rear option like I had in my hundy, but for my uses and I’d wager for 99% of 200 owners’ uses lockers aren’t necessary.




Sounds like some fun adventures ahead! I think the MTS will impress you, but if you’re ever in a situation where you need a locker I’m sure you will be glad to have it.

To your original question, when the rear is locked MTS won’t do anything for the rear axle since both tires will be turning at the same rate, but MTS will work as normal on the front axle. I had a 3rd gen Tacoma with the rear locker and MTS which was a beautiful combo because you can still steer easily unlike when the front is fully locked.

Let us know which setup you go with and how you like it. I see pros and cons to both ARB and Harrop, but I don’t think you can go wrong with either as long as the install is done well.
So my plan is to have East Coast Gear install a Harrop / Eaton E-Locker 14213-1 / A9574 T9.5 . I prefer an E-locker, I'm sure both air and E has their pros and cons

MTS, I have used a BUNCH over the last year as well as the CC, where I hunt is not steep but it has some difficult areas water, bogs ect, 4HI with everything off has saved more than once, the LC can be a beast when it wants to.
 

mcgaskins

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Very impressive indeed. Thanks for sharing those videos. Overall thoughts on Ruby vs. the current 200 since they are very similar in build? Also, were you running wheel spacers on Ruby in those videos?

I find both vehicles to be very similar overall, but the traction advantage goes to the 16 for sure. The MTS settings are better and more proactive as opposed to reactive in the 13-15 programming. First gear is also noticeably lower in the 16 which also helps especially going downhill. Ruby was running spacers in the videos, but I ran without the 0.75” Bora spacers for the first year or I believe. The stock wheel with Bora feels very similar to the Icon wheels, and I don’t have a preference either way honestly - I like them both!
 
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What I learned from that crawl control discussion: the answer to why a triple locked Chevy and a double locked prado couldn’t outperform crawl control.

the answer is that even with a locker you can give it too much throttle, over spin a tire, and lose momentum

The magic of crawl control is that it doesn’t let you give enough throttle to break traction and lose momentum.

Since it controls how quick you’re going, it maintains momentum for you without breaking traction...it basically gives perfect throttle manipulation plus braking when it messes up. The crawl control vehicles outperformed the locked vehicles in the crawl control thread because the locked vehicles had drivers over spinning their tires due to providing too much throttle for the terrain to “hold” without over spinning a tire.

The moment crawl control senses a tire doesn’t have enough traction to not over spin past the amount of traction available it stops. I.e. it notices when a particular tire is over spinning it’s available traction, it stops that tire from spinning and seeks traction from another of the 3 remaining tires.

crawl control with a locker or two would, hypothetically, still have the ability to not over spin a tire...you would still be giving away throttle control to the computer so you don’t overspin a tire...but the lockers would ensure that the braking portion of the crawl control software wasn’t as necessary.

you would also lose the ability to steer as effectively with the lockers engaged.

I would recommend you go wtih arb’s if you’re going to do this...my understanding is that they engage and disengage on the fly in a more reliable and quick manner than the e lockers...which means you could engage crawl control, then engage or disengage your locker(s) in straight aways on obstacles more efficiently.

added bonus: a very high quality compressor to air down and up.

as another person commented: your “offroadability” in the 200 is likely more limited by your departure angle, then break over, then approach than it is by traction issues. I plan to square those away first...before messing with lockers.

and even then, I’ll only replace those body parts as they become damaged...and the lockers only go in after getting stuck in a situation that a locker could have fixed.
 
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CharlieS

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Lots of perspectives for sure. I don't recall you asking anyone if they thought it was a good idea... I've noticed people often feel compelled to try to talk us out of doing things even though we didn't ask for their opinion on the matter. Oh well. I figure it is your rig, and if you want a rear locker go for it. People spend money on a lot more frivolous stuff around here, I know I do for sure. For me, a rear locker would have utility at times - maybe only 5% of the time, but it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I don't see any downsides other than cost, and that is a very personal matter. I'm watching your experience and am likely to follow in your footsteps someday.
 
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I don't really need lockers in either of my vehicles but I definitely want them in at least one of them lol. I say go for it, personally I'd choose ARB air lockers but that's largely because I already have the air compressor lol.
 

Fishinsea

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What I learned from that crawl control discussion: the answer to why a triple locked Chevy and a double locked prado couldn’t outperform crawl control.

the answer is that even with a locker you can give it too much throttle, over spin a tire, and lose momentum

The magic of crawl control is that it doesn’t let you give enough throttle to break traction and lose momentum.

Since it controls how quick you’re going, it maintains momentum for you without breaking traction...it basically gives perfect throttle manipulation plus braking when it messes up. The crawl control vehicles outperformed the locked vehicles in the crawl control thread because the locked vehicles had drivers over spinning their tires due to providing too much throttle for the terrain to “hold” without over spinning a tire.

The moment crawl control senses a tire doesn’t have enough traction to not over spin past the amount of traction available it stops. I.e. it notices when a particular tire is over spinning it’s available traction, it stops that tire from spinning and seeks traction from another of the 3 remaining tires.

crawl control with a locker or two would, hypothetically, still have the ability to not over spin a tire...you would still be giving away throttle control to the computer so you don’t overspin a tire...but the lockers would ensure that the braking portion of the crawl control software wasn’t as necessary.

you would also lose the ability to steer as effectively with the lockers engaged.

I would recommend you go wtih arb’s if you’re going to do this...my understanding is that they engage and disengage on the fly in a more reliable and quick manner than the e lockers...which means you could engage crawl control, then engage or disengage your locker(s) in straight aways on obstacles more efficiently.

added bonus: a very high quality compressor to air down and up.

as another person commented: your “offroadability” in the 200 is likely more limited by your departure angle, then break over, then approach than it is by traction issues. I plan to square those away first...before messing with lockers.

and even then, I’ll only replace those body parts as they become damaged...and the lockers only go in after getting stuck in a situation that a locker could have fixed.
I completely understand how CC works no doubt, my question here is how does it work when you have a rear locker turned on.

As for steering, steering is not going to be hugely affected by a " rear locker " I have no interest at this time for a front locker as I do not rock crawl or aatempt steep angles unless put in a corner and if did, would be minimal at best.

CC only works in 4LO but having a locker does with in just HI

There are many other uses for lockers that do not involved approach and departure angles.

I do have a ARB compressor on board but still choose E-locker as my preference

The point of this thread was specifically directed as to how CC and a locker work together and what to expect.
 

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