2008 Styling - What do you think? (2 Viewers)

[ShottsUZJ100]

I should mention that the difference between best and worst reliability is less than it has probably ever been and Japanese manufacturers are to be credited for raising everyones game.
The build quality is still too variable and the worst car I have seen recently in internal build quality has been the Chrysler Sebring which has mismatched and poorly fitting trim made out of cheap plastic with hard sharp edges. They are misguided in bringing that into the UK because I forcast that it will not sell in any numbers. The 300C otoh is a car that I would seriously consider with the Mercedes V6 turbo diesel and selectronic gearbox. Nice.

We're comparing brand names where data is specific. It's not a US vs Europe vs Japan.

The difference between a LC100 and DiscoII is about 3:1 in repair reports. 3x is a significant number to me.

A 1997 Lexus LX430 has fewer reported repairs in 2006 than a 2005 MB ML320. A 9-year old car with less issues than a 1-year old MB. I won't own garbage.

 

[hedydd]

I subscribe to the AZ Rover's site. I have many Rover friends. They are superb people and drive very capable vehicles. You would not believe what failures I read about 24/7. Things that fail and things that are so basic that it puzzles me. Examples are too numerous to count. Many members bail from the brand becuase of this. Some will not give up on the brand. I'd luv a DiscoII but the trouble and expense is not worth it to me.

Judging by the respondants to CR, horiffic reliability is the "standard" despite it not being what "you" experienced.

Your experience is what you read. Mine is practical ownership experience. People who buy LR products tend to 'test' them more than some other brands and of course some things will fail. In the USA they are such a luxury and niche product that the expectations are sky high and the owners tend to be more demanding and vocal than average. In Europe this tends not to be the case.
Don't get me wrong, they are not perfect and certainly not as reliable as the Land Cruiser but they are far better then the impression you have gained by reading about them.
I have just scrapped a Land Rover commercial pick-up which completed over 12,000 hours of very hard work. Now my Land Cruiser would have to complete 360,000 miles to match that workload. The last twenty years have been quite unaventful although the first three years were a bit troublesome IIRC. It was on its second clutch, original everything else. The engine just wore out in the end and everything else is too tired to spend any money on it.
To be fair and objective I had another similar vehicle of the same age [1984 model] which had me tearing my hair out with huge problems in every area of its being. Since then things improved greatly. I had a 1988 range Rover diesel which covered over 100,000 miles with perfect reliability after an initial problem with the clutch and brakes were cured in the first year. An '86 petrol V8 that was not as good but was run unaventfully for some 80,000 miles and changed for the first Land Cruiser. At that time I also bought a 1990 Discovery which had a few teathing troubles in the rear door hinge but which again was otherwise reliable but not particularly liked by my wife.
I've few complaints about either Land Cruiser or Land Rover vehicles I have owned. Oh, I forgot that the Land Cruiser 80 1-HDT did have a gearbox with poor second gear synchromesh and by the time I sold it, it had started to jump out of second gear. Nothings perfect and those that expect perfection are doomed to eternal disappointment.

 

[hedydd]

We're comparing brand names where data is specific. It's not a US vs Europe vs Japan.

The difference between a LC100 and DiscoII is about 3:1 in repair reports. 3x is a significant number to me.

A 1997 Lexus LX430 has fewer reported repairs in 2006 than a 2005 MB ML320. A 9-year old car with less issues than a 1-year old MB. I won't own garbage.

You keep reading and I'll just keep on experiencing the real thing. Before the X5 I ran a MB ML270cdi, from early 2000 to early 2003 I think, although mine was Austrian built not an Alabama build. Still had the worst build quality of all recent cars. It had a cheap feeling in all aspects of its trim. The basic concept and drive was superb with a lovely five cylider diesel and a better auto transmission than either BMW or Range Rover [GM5 in those two's diesel versions]. The main drawback with that car [apart from ground clearance issues similar to the Q7] was the suspension which continually shook me from side to side. My wife loved this one. I did not. It had perfect reliability while with me, in contrast to a few problems with the following X5 which I really liked but which my wife learned to distrust.
She didn't like the Range Rover either. Both of us found it to be noisy and slow in comparison to the X5 but I loved it and it was superbly well built. We both like the Q7 but I have to say that the Land Cruiser is my favourite and will remain while it is viable.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

You keep reading and I'll just keep on experiencing the real thing. Before the X5 I ran a MB ML270cdi, from early 2000 to early 2003 I think, although mine was Austrian built not an Alabama build. Still had the worst build quality of all recent cars. It had a cheap feeling in all aspects of its trim. The basic concept and drive was superb with a lovely five cylider diesel and a better auto transmission than either BMW or Range Rover [GM5 in those two's diesel versions]. The main drawback with that car [apart from ground clearance issues similar to the Q7] was the suspension which continually shook me from side to side. My wife loved this one. I did not. It had perfect reliability while with me, in contrast to a few problems with the following X5 which I really liked but which my wife learned to distrust.
She didn't like the Range Rover either. Both of us found it to be noisy and slow in comparison to the X5 but I loved it and it was superbly well built. We both like the Q7 but I have to say that the Land Cruiser is my favourite and will remain while it is viable.

You quote 1 car here. 1 car there. 1 car here. One car there.

The data out there is based on thousands upon thousands of vehicles. For every 1 of your good Rover and MB stories there's 10 duds.

I'm on my 3rd steering rack on my 2001. That doesn't mean all the 100-series racks fail. There's been almost none. One experience doesn't speak for the majority.

 

[hedydd]

You quote 1 car here. 1 car there. 1 car here. One car there.

The data out there is based on thousands upon thousands of vehicles. For every 1 of your good Rover and MB stories there's 10 duds.

I'm on my 3rd steering rack on my 2001. That doesn't mean all the 100-series racks fail. There's been almost none. One experience doesn't speak for the majority.

Thank you. You are making my point for me. The data does not pertain to any specific vehicle and mine were for the most part reliable. Your Land Cruiser has not been.
Lots of Land Cruiser 100's have front diff failures if you read a lot. By far the majority do not have this problem in their lifetime. You can buy a reliable Land Rover product. Get over it. The chances of buying a relaible Land Cruiser would appear to be better, that is all, and my long term ownership experience does not contradict this although it is more inconclusive than anything, in the modern context.

You never know, the new model Land Cruiser 200 might have terrible trouble. There is no history to it yet. Early 80 series certainly had their share with the common poor and failing synchro and failure to diesel injector pumps [both of which I had, so yes the 80 left me stranded once] along with 'birfield' CV joints in the front axle.
My 100 is a very early one and quite a few of these with diesel engines had inferior bearing shells. Mine have been no problem so far and I have had no major problems. All these are known problems and none are trivial.
" I won't own garbage" is a quote of yours yet you have suffered two failed steering racks....Hey, when does it qualify as garbage?
Like I said, he who expects perfection will be eternally disappointed. Also on that reliability survey, if LR for the sake of arguement [I haven't got broadband and the file times out before coming to large SUV's] has 40% more problems per hundred cars than the average then if the average is ten problems per hundred cars then LR vehicles would have 14 problems per hundred vehicles. Whoopedy do........ so what?

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Thank you. You are making my point for me. The data does not pertain to any specific vehicle and mine were for the most part reliable. Your Land Cruiser has not been.
Lots of Land Cruiser 100's have front diff failures if you read a lot. By far the majority do not have this problem in their lifetime. You can buy a reliable Land Rover product. Get over it. The chances of buying a relaible Land Cruiser would appear to be better, that is all, and my long term ownership experience does not contradict this although it is more inconclusive than anything, in the modern context.

You never know, the new model Land Cruiser 200 might have terrible trouble. There is no history to it yet. Early 80 series certainly had their share with the common poor and failing synchro and failure to diesel injector pumps [both of which I had, so yes the 80 left me stranded once] along with 'birfield' CV joints in the front axle.
My 100 is a very early one and quite a few of these with diesel engines had inferior bearing shells. Mine have been no problem so far and I have had no major problems. All these are known problems and none are trivial.
" I won't own garbage" is a quote of yours yet you have suffered two failed steering racks....Hey, when does it qualify as garbage?
Like I said, he who expects perfection will be eternally disappointed.

My Cruiser has been ultra-reliable. Other than maintenace/wear items I can only think of a couple of repairs in the 6 years. The racks are from 6-years of heavy wheeling on 35's. You gotta pay to play. Other than that....one or two is it in 120K.

$10 switch in the T-case to fix an indicator light
Damn, I'm thinking.........
I might need a blower fan now at 120K....not sure
Ah.................
A CV went bad due to the morons not securing a boot clip....that doesn't count....ahh.....
I'm tying to think of failures......they're not coming to me........
A/C hose at 115K....well, a hose....that's maintenance.

I'm stuck.....I can't think of any. I never had a CEL. Starter contacts fine, no clicking sounds.....OH! My CD player died at about 70K.

Man, that's about it.

 

[hedydd]

My Cruiser has been ultra-reliable. Other than maintenace/wear items I can only think of a couple of repairs in the 6 years. The racks are from 6-years of heavy wheeling on 35's. You gotta pay to play. Other than that....one or two is it in 120K.

$10 switch in the T-case to fix an indicator light
Damn, I'm thinking.........
I might need a blower fan now at 120K....not sure
Ah.................
A CV went bad due to the morons not securing a boot clip....that doesn't count....ahh.....
I'm tying to think of failures......they're not coming to me........
A/C hose at 115K....well, a hose....that's maintenance.

I'm stuck.....I can't think of any. I never had a CEL. Starter contacts fine, no clicking sounds.....OH! My CD player died at about 70K.

Man, that's about it.

Oh my cd changer packed up at about the same time. Must be a common fault then. CV joint, yes it counts because they shouldn't have been in there in the first place. Air con hose not counting? Of course it does and it certainly isn't a maintenance item, it is a failure. And of course no excuse can hide the fact that two steering racks have failed. I had two steering boxes fail on the just scrapped LR which only did road work further than a mile from home if towing a 16ft livestock box sometimes with over four tons being pulled. No excuses, they failed over a 25 year life. Period.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Oh my cd changer packed up at about the same time. Must be a common fault then. CV joint, yes it counts because they shouldn't have been in there in the first place. Air con hose not counting? Of course it does and it certainly isn't a maintenance item, it is a failure. And of course no excuse can hide the fact that two steering racks have failed. I had two steering boxes fail on the just scrapped LR which only did road work further than a mile from home if towing a 16ft livestock box sometimes with over four tons being pulled. No excuses, they failed over a 25 year life. Period.

I'm not going to argue about this any more. Rover's bite and Cruisers hold together. The entire 4-wheeling community knows it.

Your CV conclusion holds no merit. The dealer gave me free boots (maintenance, though the boots were fine...this dealer gave me several things free I did not need) and didn't seal the ring so it leaked out and messed up the axle. It's not the vehicles fault as you say. It's the mechanics. So with your logic.....if you get an oil change in a 100 and they forget to fill the engine back up with oil and you go driving, then the V8 fails, it's the 100's fault.

A/C and other hioses? You don't replace them as maintenance? You might be the first! The A/C hose didn't go at 16K.

Lastly, the racks....I'm alone here. These have not been a weak part for others. That said, others have not been beating their 100's up since 2001. I think in time that these will show as a weak part for heavy wheelers with the bigger tires.

Better one part weak than a whole vehicle like a Rover.

 

[hedydd]

I'm not going to argue about this any more. Rover's bite and Cruisers hold together. The entire 4-wheeling community knows it.

Your CV conclusion holds no merit. The dealer gave me free boots (maintenance, though the boots were fine...this dealer gave me several things free I did not need) and didn't seal the ring so it leaked out and messed up the axle. It's not the vehicles fault as you say. It's the mechanics. So with your logic.....if you get an oil change in a 100 and they forget to fill the engine back up with oil and you go driving, then the V8 fails, it's the 100's fault.

A/C and other hioses? You don't replace them as maintenance? You might be the first! The A/C hose didn't go at 16K.

Lastly, the racks....I'm alone here. These have not been a weak part for others. That said, others have not been beating their 100's up since 2001. I think in time that these will show as a weak part for heavy wheelers with the bigger tires.

Better one part weak than a whole vehicle like a Rover.

You are biassed and inexperienced, relying on surveys which you misinterprate and heresay. Your and my LandCruisers have been not much more reliable than my Land Rovers. I have no axe to grind and I currently own my long term LC but no LR product. I also currently run a Nissan Terrano [one of three bought in 95] a Isuzu Trooper, A Q7, and a new Ford Ranger DCi super cab pick-up in my scaled down fleet.
It does concern me though that you should have such a bias based on predjudice.
My view is based on my experience. Did you understand the part about percentages in that survey you posted? If you did, I bet you didn't think I would know how they work You conveniently cut my explanation from your reply and ignored it.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Your and my LandCruisers have been not much more reliable than my Land Rovers.

Forget YOUR and MY Cruisers and YOUR Rovers. Our few experiences mean almost nothing compared to the surveys and experiences of tens of thousands.

 

[hedydd]

Forget YOUR and MY Cruisers and YOUR Rovers. Our few experiences mean almost nothing compared to the surveys and experiences of tens of thousands.

But the surveys show only a 40% increased number of faults per hundred vehicles more than average or thereabouts. If the average is ten faults per hundred vehicles per year then the RR only suffers fourteen. If the average is 15 faults then the RR averages about 21 faults PER HUNDRED VEHICLES. Your survey, I didn't post it. I doubt you understood it or its implications. Not many do. They have to post these things to look dramatic or the media would pay them the little attention they deserve.
Given a similar price I would have no hesitation in comparing a new Range Rover on equal terms to a new Land Cruiser. You would not. That is your choice. In differnt times I have no doubt you would be equally biassed against anything foreign and especially Japanese.

 

[FirstToy]

hedydd, why bother? there is a reason this smilie is named after him :shotts:

 

[twstrchasr]

Forget YOUR and MY Cruisers and YOUR Rovers. Our few experiences mean almost nothing compared to the surveys and experiences of tens of thousands.

I must say that you continue to spout off about this survey, that survey..I will say that from my own personal experience of 3 Land Rover products and 4 Land Cruisers that the Land Rover products have been at worst, just as reliable as the Toyota products. In fact, my current 100 series has proven to be more expensive to maintain than any LR product I have ever owned. My 2001 LC with only 64,000 miles had to have a new transmission within the past month. Nothing like that has happened with any LR I have owned ! All of these surveys mean nothing to me since I have owned and lived with the vehicles. I appreciate your foundness for Toyotas, as I am in this forum as a Toyota owner as well. But,I am very suspicious of these "surveys" you seem so enamoured by. Also, your statement --"I'm not going to argue about this any more. Rover's bite and Cruisers hold together. The entire 4-wheeling community knows it." You need to take some of Mark Twain's advice junior--"Say nothing and be thought a fool. Open your mouth and remove all doubt."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2001 Land Cruiser UZJ100
1989 Land Cruiser FJ62
1991 Range Rover Classic
2003 Mercedes CL55 AMG
2008 Range Rover S/C ??

 

[Dougal]

I often wonder, with a "dealer serviced" vehicle, how many parts are changed without the owners knowledge?

I service my own vehicles so I know exactly what's been done. I also know my rover has over half a million km's on it (but currently reads 320,000km, thanks dodgy dealer).

I also know a troll when I see one.

 

[hedydd]

I often wonder, with a "dealer serviced" vehicle, how many parts are changed without the owners knowledge?

I service my own vehicles so I know exactly what's been done. I also know my rover has over half a million km's on it (but currently reads 320,000km, thanks dodgy dealer).

I also know a troll when I see one.

I have always been more concerned with what has NOT been done but should have been and has been charged for.

The alleged troll is rather blinkered with regards to Land Cruiser but many people are like that. Me? I regard the Land Cruiser just like any other lump of metal that has 'character'. I judge it on an equal footing to my other vehicles. Each has its good and bad points. I like the Land Cruiser otherwise it would not be my daily work vehicle after nine years. Range Rover was a better vehicle off road and the handling was better but I prefer the engine and auto of the LC to the 'old' BMW engine I had in the RR even though the LC has the old four speed box. I like it and that's that.

 

[Dougal]

Range Rover was a better vehicle off road and the handling was better

I've found that time and time again. The 100 series in my family does nothing but wallow onroad. Even with the electrically adjustable dampers all set to "sport".
To me it feels like the steering doesn't have enough caster, there's just no feel and yes the wheel alignment has been done twice.

Over a 200km trip the 100 series landcruiser is 20 minutes slower than a lifted diesel rangerover 16 years it's senior.
Excellent engine and brakes in the diesel 100 series, but the rest just doesn't do it for me.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Over a 200km trip the 100 series landcruiser is 20 minutes slower than a lifted diesel rangerover 16 years it's senior.

 

[Dougal]

Corners.
The 100 series sucks at driving around them.

 

[Atticus]

Corners.
The 100 series sucks at driving around them.

I agree with that statement. My sister's 100 does not handle nearly as well as my 80.

 

[Dougal]

I agree with that statement. My sister's 100 does not handle nearly as well as my 80.

I haven't driven an 80 series, but I've chased one through that same road at speeds that would have the 100 series rolling off the first corner.