1FZ Head Porting and CNC

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hazard

hazard

10 Year
Joined
Aug 31, 2013
Threads
18
Messages
457
Location
BC Canada & Baja
Website
www.wdmoore.ca
I know that a number of you have ported, and had ported, heads. I have been using a computer engine simulator to test different flows and velocities and see there are great gains to be had. I have looked into CNC porting which would be the best as it makes each port identical and leaves the best finish (basically whatever finish you want such as golf ball etc.), (somewhat grooved and rough for turbulence). Problem is CNC needs to be programed which would cost about $3,000.
If we had enough people wanting it sure would be good for us to own the program. Once done CNC porting is faster and cheaper. The fly in the ointment is that we would need to know exactly what we want to achieve. The only way I can think of is to get a hand ported head that has proven to achieve a desired goal and then use it as a template for the CNC programming.
Anyone interested? Or if I could find and borrow the already proven, head and pay for the programming, would anyone be willing to pay a usage fee to have their heads ported? It would still be cheaper than hand port, any way more consistent. One issue I would have is how to make sure no shops kept the programming to use without paying.
Could also do combustion chambers.
Anyone out there have a proven (dyno) head with flow that is useable, (in other words, not just big flow but the correct velocities for broad band power as bigger does not necessarily mean better unless you are spinning to the moon). For my application I need velocities around 240 ft/sec, and max flows of over 300 at 0.450. Easy to achieve high flows, harder to maintain the velocity. My application will be different than others as I am stroking to 5.4L and keeping revs below 5,500.

Thoughts?

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Hi All
 
From a purely, "I like to play with stuff" perspective, it's a great idea. I see two (potential) problems.
1. Once you give the program to a shop, it's lost. I don't care how many lawyers you have. If this were a routine manufacturing job in industry, I agree you could write, and have signed, an agreement. But you're talking about shops that do primarily auto work, which is a specialized area of machining. I wouldn't trust anyone I didn't have on a chain in my hand.

2. Secondly, and far less important than the first point, this isn't a car. The aerodynamics are similar to a billboard. No wait, that's an FJ40. But it's not much better. You might get real world dyno improvement, but it wouldn't translate to the wheels.

Just my 2¢. It's worth what you paid for it.
 
Maybe this is a candidate for GoFundMe.

I'm surprised that there isn't an "open source movement" for this sort of thing.
 
The problem I have looked into and found is that most shops that would take on this project do not have a 5 axis machine big enough to handle the length of the head. MS75 had his head done and tried to have it mapped so it could be reproduced and was not able to find a place that would do it. That was a few years ago.
 
Closest I came to machining my head was Extrude Honing but the cost was ridiculous. So I sat with a carbide bit, plexiglass, mineral oil, food color and an eye dropper. BUT...because I was in between film shoots at the time I didn't have time to finish it the way I wanted to. Its a lot of time. Far easier to balance the pistons and rods.
 
And just to give you an idea, MS75's head was an all out effort. It was done on a bad head and cut back to the point the thickness was only .060" and built back up with devcon to find the limits. But the flow was very good considering it is a forklift motor.

1FZ vs 2JZ ported head flows.

Intake
lift - 1FZ CFM - Greg's 2JZ CFM
.1" - 110 - 108.8
.2" - 218 - 160.6
.3" - 302 - 227.3
.4" - 341 - 282.4
.5" - 361 - 299.9
.6" - 410 - 303

Exhaust:
lift - 1FZ CFM - Greg's 2JZ CFM
.1" - 95 - 99
.2" - 168 - 179.2
.3" - 223.8 - 211.8
.4" - 247.2 - 222.4
.5" - 255.6 - 230.4
.6" - 261 - 233.7
 
As someone learning code & pursuing this for a career, the I6 head just is too long to fit most of the turntables for the 4th & 5th axis. Not without buying time on a serious machine with a company who isn't concerned with car parts (think the intake fan on jet engines) - so the budget thing just would have to be tossed unless a guy like me gets a big enough cradle & codes it as a labor of love, since if you charge more than ~$500 I seriously doubt how many would pay for the labor.

Techtonics is a VW tuner who had a flowbench & hand ported the various VW induction side parts & head. They had a tech zone on their site long ago, describes their methods & mentality.

I agree w/ Onur, you can get some gain with just the kit from Eastwood & the Dremel with the cable wand for the lower intake.
 
I don't know that I would go too far beyond some light port "clean up" on anything that's going to see anything close to daily usage. Sure, there are alot of gains to be had but on a full report that has a large change on port volume those gains would be found well out of the rpm range that 99% of us use our engine in. Great for a sand drag project but would likely be a net loss for a off road/camping/driver rig, stick with a carbide burr and focus on cleaning up casting flash and irregularities close to the valve seat.
 
NLXTACY said:
Closest I came to machining my head was Extrude Honing but the cost was ridiculous. So I sat with a carbide bit, plexiglass, mineral oil, food color and an eye dropper. BUT...because I was in between film shoots at the time I didn't have time to finish it the way I wanted to. Its a lot of time. Far easier to balance the pistons and rods.
Click to expand...

Yup. I believe Robbie charges 11hrs labor for a port and polish. Though don’t quote me. Best to talk with Robbie.
 
That would be a pretty good deal! I am probably closer to 18-20, but I am not a pro. lol.

OGBeno said:
Yup. I believe Robbie charges 11hrs labor for a port and polish. Though don’t quote me. Best to talk with Robbie.
Click to expand...
 
The problem i see with a project like this is limited demand for the CNC shop. Since there aren't many owners of 1FZ engines who want to have this level of work done, i just don't see this as being cost effective. YMMV
 
LINUS said:
As someone learning code & pursuing this for a career, the I6 head just is too long to fit most of the turntables for the 4th & 5th axis. Not without buying time on a serious machine with a company who isn't concerned with car parts (think the intake fan on jet engines) - so the budget thing just would have to be tossed unless a guy like me gets a big enough cradle & codes it as a labor of love, since if you charge more than ~$500 I seriously doubt how many would pay for the labor.

Techtonics is a VW tuner who had a flowbench & hand ported the various VW induction side parts & head. They had a tech zone on their site long ago, describes their methods & mentality.

I agree w/ Onur, you can get some gain with just the kit from Eastwood & the Dremel with the cable wand for the lower intake.
Click to expand...
I've always been a big fan of Techtonics Tuning. I'm an old Audi/VW watercooled guy.
 
All very interesting comments, opinions and advice. Very much appreciated. I will comment on each separately.
First let me say that my engine will be a bit different. As it will be stroked to 5.5 L it will have inherent torque so I can do some things to increase power in the mid band,that may affect the low, but with the extra torque it would still be a low end daily driver. I have a pretty good simulator software, and even with mild cam etc I expect torque to be over 400, and at roughly the same rpm as stock. I can adjust the power band by cam timing and other means. I want a daily driver so high idle vacuum, longevity, and power below 5,000 are the goals. So far the simulator puts peak torque at around 4,000 no matter what I plug in, that is very close to stock.
There is lots to be gained by Good, or better, design of cams, exhaust and intake. Remember that theory and tech has advanced a long way since 1997. For example; why is nobody improving on header or intake design for this engine? Mostly because there is not enough interest, And it is easier just to boost it. I want to see what I can do. I have deep pockets, but not that deep as I have done a bunch of research, and “true”custom cams etc. Are only affordable by those with F1 budgets.
I will be researching further, and have made many contacts, hopefully it can be a help to us all. Turbo and get 500hp is pretty easy, but I don’t want that complexity. I am looking for 350+ NA simple reliable hp and tq. think this can be done. It should also improve mileage if gearing is corrected.
 
OGBeno said:
Getting more than 5 people in today's 80 series market to commit to something like this is going to almost difficult to impossible.

Good outside the box thinking.

I recommend getting your grinding kit out and going to town.
Click to expand...
You are right. However, “I had a dream”. I have bought a nice grinder and will get to work.
Cheers
 
scottryana said:
The problem I have looked into and found is that most shops that would take on this project do not have a 5 axis machine big enough to handle the length of the head. MS75 had his head done and tried to have it mapped so it could be reproduced and was not able to find a place that would do it. That was a few years ago.
Click to expand...
After research I have to agree. Too bad for us. It would be so cool to see what was possible if the money and interest were there.
 
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