16 inch, split rims or one piece? (1 Viewer)

[goldchaser]

I don't run split rims,but yes i have patched a few yrs back while doing prospecting tours in WA,NT.No probs with them.
Most punctures ive seen are usually mulga through the tire,ive seen some good holes plugged.
The worse thing with splitties is the ride comfort,honestly it is s***,i have a troopy with them.
And honestly, with no maucho bull**** the majority of station owners i see these days run tubeless.

 

[rexman]

go talk to most people that have had problems,,,>O thats right they are dead,split ring came apart and what do you think it takes off ,your head,if your lucky it will just fu?k up your day/the rest of your life,i have a cousen while filling the tire crushed his chest,took half his jaw and the side of his face ,he is still with us ,if he was not a big farm boy he would be useing them wings,sure y can do things in the field but if it f - - ks up you are way far from HELP,if ya think ya don't want to because the tire is shot anyway,>run beadloc's at least ya can still keep going ,and easy er to repair,lighterfluid will set the bead if done right.your chose, but that is what is great about a site like this,sure people will sware by them/splitrims,but they never seen the aftermass,i used to be a firefighter in a big city,people would say look at them bums setting in front of the fire house what a waste of tax dollors,till you pull them from there burning house,or highrise,or out of there overturned car,THEN they can't say look at them bums.its your life do what ya want,then we can talk about y rember so&so killed by a split rim,did we tell him,the hard head,got a good deal from the wife on that cruiser,remind her of him

 

[lostmarbles]

...My Dislikes.
With a puncture it instantly goes flatLOL......

And I really don't think you can blame splitrims for your bad experience there Gazza. That experience could just as easily have happened with a tubeless tyre IMO.

.......The worse thing with splitties is the ride comfort,honestly it is s***,i have a troopy with them.
And honestly, with no maucho bull**** the majority of station owners i see these days run tubeless.

Jeez. Ride comfort now?

I wish I could take you for a ride in my BJ40. I sincerely doubt ANY other forty series in the world would have a softer ride than mine.

(Note - I'm saying 40-series and NOT "any other 4 wheel drive" - because I fully admit I'd be stupid to claim THAT!)

The only way splits could contribute to "rough ride" is through "tyre choice" .... and you don't need to run "crossplys with heavy sidewalls" if you don't want to.

You are free to run any tyre that suits the diameter and width of your rim (which is the same situation with your standard non-split rim).

go talk to most people that have had problems,,,>O thats right they are dead,split ring came apart and what do you think it takes off ,your head,if your lucky it will just fu?k up your day/the rest of your life,i have a cousen while filling the tire crushed his chest,took half his jaw and the side of his face ,he is still with us ,if he was not a big farm boy he would be useing them wings,sure y can do things in the field but if it f - - ks up you are way far from HELP,if ya think ya don't want to because the tire is shot anyway,>run beadloc's at least ya can still keep going ,and easy er to repair,lighterfluid will set the bead if done right.your chose, but that is what is great about a site like this,sure people will sware by them/splitrims,but they never seen the aftermass,i used to be a firefighter in a big city,people would say look at them bums setting in front of the fire house what a waste of tax dollors,till you pull them from there burning house,or highrise,or out of there overturned car,THEN they can't say look at them bums.its your life do what ya want,then we can talk about y rember so&so killed by a split rim,did we tell him,the hard head,got a good deal from the wife on that cruiser,remind her of him

Yeah. I was silly to talk of "ignorance" before.

If I owned a tyre shop and got the level of "job-dedication and intelligence" from my employees that I deserved from the going pay-rate - I'd refuse to allow them to handle splits too.

How could I reliably teach such employees (as they come and go from my employment) how to distinguish a dangerous split-rim from one that is safe? And if just one of them were to do something silly - both their life and mine would be stuffed foreever more.

Good point!

 

[goldchaser]

Yeah lostmarbles i have i think 7.50 x16's on the troopy,your right you can put better riding tyres on.
As for ride comfort,well it means alot to me and others that drive outback type roads often im guessing,especially with leaf springs on the front of ya truck.It does help.
I like the idea of a wider tyre when your loaded for trips(wider tyres=more beer carrying capacity),the truck just feels alot more planted on the road.

When ive seen them go flat it does happen pretty quick.

Unless doug is crossing remote deserts i don't reckon he needs split rims.

 

[cruiser_guy]

I tend to like my junk to be just a little different than everyone else's, so maybe that's why I like splits.

I like my junk a little unique as well but unique with little to no benefit or looks, what's the point, especially if it cost more or limits choices, as in tires.

Tubeless tires cannot (or it is recommended that they are not) be used with tubes.

 

[lostmarbles]

......Tubeless tires cannot (or it is recommended that they are not) be used with tubes.

Anybody have an origin for this misinformation? (It's complete nonsense to me!)

I've been running BFG radial tyres for decades on my splits. And I guess those people who distinguish would classify them as "tubeless" because that is their most common application.

A big factor (for me) in running radials is that they wear FAR more slowly than heavy-wall crossplys (which of course are also called Bias-plys).

ie. HALF the rate of wear or better! ... which is a big factor for someone like me in a low-paying job.

I think a big contributor to the low-wear (and soft-ride) of my BFG radials is the soft sidewall (only 2-ply as I recall) that still manages to stand up pretty well offroad. But having said that - I certainly wouldn't use them to bushbash mulga in outback Oz or air-them-down in rocky terrain ... for fear of sidewall punctures.

I know of NO special requirement for tyres that is specific to splitrims. (If you can think of one - Please identify it!)

And back on the subject of fitting tyres to splits:
We are probably in a better situation in this part of the world because the standard tyre size on our 40-series has always been 16 inch. And that just happens to be the same size used on lots of trucks and trailers. So, here, if you want no-hassles fittings (with a ready supply of tubes and liners on hand) - you need only go to someone that handles REAL trucks. And they won't be scared of splits either (and will have the safety cages associated with changing tyres on them if that's what their Health&Safety guidelines require) because splits are still relatively common on heavy vehicles here.



Apologies for my spelling.... I guess to many here I should be writing TIRES ...but that's not "the Queen's english (and therefore I just CAN'T do it)"

PS. Just had a "brainwave".
Went out and checked my tyres and "yes" they do indeed have the word "tubeless" embossed on them.
So I think the old-style crossplys/biasplys WITHOUT THAT WORD ON THEM should not be run as tubeless. And perhaps somehow people have assumed that a restriction occurs in the other direction too. (ie Tubeless can't be run tubed). But that is a ridiculous assumption IMO because the "special requirement" here is only that a tyre that is being run tubeless must be capable of "holding air" itself (with the integral requirements of "having the capability to seal effectively at the beads" and perhaps having "better resistance to sidewall blowout").
In other words, I think you are applying the use-restriction in the wrong direction Cruiserguy.

 

[cruiser_guy]

What I have heard and read is that tubes in tubeless tires generate heat which tires don't like. The squirming around of the tube in the rough inside of the tubeless tire carcass will generate heat and abrade the tube potentially causing a blowout.

As I said, I don't run splits, I don't want to run splits and I wouldn't recommend splits to anyone in North America.

It may be different in Australia, I don't know, but here or in other places I've been or will be splits are NOT in my future.

 

[dousty]

I am a maintanance supervisor at an open cut coal mine. There are a gazzilion split rims on the LV's at the mine I work at. I have had many flats but none of them were instant blowouts (the only "blowout" I've ever had as on the highway with a radial...it just went BOOM). These tyres/rims cop an absolute flogging in the hands of people who don't care, and they perform very very well.

Granted the max speed on the mine site is 70km/h but you can be sure people are often traveling far in excess of this over roads not fit for half the speed. I'm talking about rocks up to the size of a pineapple being regularly run over at speed(anything larger and they ask me to organise a tow truck and a spill kit ).

Working with split rims are no more dangerous than jacking a machine up or many other tasks. It's all about the person doing the job.

The real negative with splits is the wheel weight which has a negative impact on your suspension and it's performance.

I'm sure other people have different experiences but there seems to be too much of "split rims are the devil" and not enough actual experience.

 

[lostmarbles]

What I have heard and read is that tubes in tubeless tires generate heat which tires don't like. The squirming around of the tube in the rough inside of the tubeless tire carcass will generate heat and abrade the tube potentially causing a blowout.....

It sure is interesting hearing these beliefs coming from America (ha ha Should I say Canada?)... because I'm sure they'll filter down here within a few years.... as splits become less and less common ... even here .

Actually this is becoming one of the best splitrim debates/discussions I've seen on ih8mud! (Must be because it is being held within the diesel section eh? .) I usually refrain from becoming involved in them because emotions usually tend to become too strong.

There is no basis IMO for believing that the friction or associated heat build-up will be greater when running a tube in a radial tyre compared to within a crossply/biasply.

The inside of a radial tyre is nice and smooth too and ideal for a tube to rub against (for a brand like BFG anyway). And besides that, most people run "liners" when using splitrim wheels which separates the tube from a significant portion of the tyre. (The liners are mainly to protect the tubes from "shards of rust" but they also serve to locate the valve neck safely/snugly and prevent any sharp objects from poking in and puncturing the tube in that vicinity.)

In fact, as I see it, the wall of the radial is likely to be thinner and thus provide better heat dissipation ... to counteract anything (such as increased sidewall-flex) that may cause extra heat to build.

Despite saying this, I would however still avoid running tubes in car-size radial-tyres (although I did for a time on my trailer because its 1950's Holden rims were never designed to hold air and I doubted they would). So I must obviously give some credence to this heat-buildup theory.

But for the huge air-to-rubber ratio in a large 4WD tyre - no problem at all IMO.

And the only overheating trouble I've ever had with tubed-tyres onroad was when the tyre rubber itself was so perished (from age) on my trailer that it no longer wanted to flex. I watched those tyres steaming when I stopped in wet weather while carrying a heavy load - but I replaced them soon after (despite their good tread-depth) as a result of noticng ... because I am very safety-consious. And the fresh/soft rubber in the new tyres by itself eliminated the excessive-heat problem. While I'm not running tubes in those tyres now ... that is a cost-saving/weight-saving choice rather than safety/overheating-avoidance choice.



PS. I always like it when I'm made to think more thoroughly about things I've been doing for donks.

And despite posting here in support of splits, I couldn't actually care less whether anyone follows my lead in chosing them. In fact, for self-interest's sake, I should really be remaining silent to maintain the present situation where so many people think they're useless ... And thereby I'd maintain the situation where the first thing city-based 4WD owners do is ditch their splits in favour of fancy mags. (I was given a set of brand-new splitrims FREE from a tyre-retailer some years ago for this very reason. And that's the set I plan on fitting new MUD tyres on shortly.)

PPS. The biggest disadvantage of splits in my opinion is "balancing problems". In fact that is the key reason why I fit my tyres myself.
I don't trust any tyre shop around here to be able to fit my tyres and achive "ziltch steering shimmy" without using ANY balancing weights. (Balancing weights tend to get knocked off off-road - so I don't run any.)

 

[cruiser_guy]

Well all I can say it that's what I've read and it makes sense to me!! You can have any set of splits I come across too. I'm not interesting in having them. A good civil debate is always good and what 'mud should be all about anyways.

It's not so much the roughness of a radial vs a bias ply tire as it is the roughness of a tubeless vs a tube style tire. My Interco Super Swampers are bias ply but tubeless. I didn't get to see the Swampers (my only bias tires) before they were mounted but I have not yet seen a tire carcass that is smooth inside.

This is some of the info I've read and it makes sense to me.

"On using tubes in tubeless tires, older tube type tires were nearly as smooth as a baby's bottom inside. Modern tubeless tires are not designed to have tubes, so there is very little attention paid to manufacturing them with a smooth interior. As such, you may expect to find a lot of raised molding marks on the inside, like a rectangular grid of small ridges. Tubes tend to squirm around inside of tires as they flex under load. The little rubber ridges inside the tubeless tire can eventually abrade the tube to cause stress cracks and pressure failure. If you will be using a tube, you would be well advised to run a power sander all around the inside of the tubeless tire to remove the molding flash and leave the inner surface as smooth as possible. And NEVER leave any manufacturer's stickers inside the tire if you will be using tubes."

"Well, you can in a pinch, but you need to be careful about a few things. In general, tubeless tires do not need tubes, and you do yourself a dis-service by using tubes with tubeless tires. Tubes reduce the flexibility of tubeless tires, thereby increasing rolling resistance. This then consumes a bit more energy to make it go, which will consume a bit more fuel. The worse part is that this extra energy is turned into heat in the tire, and tires don't like extra internal heat. This could shorten the life of the tire rather dramatically if you run it anywhere near it's maximum load or speed rating.

As a rule of thumb, if you put tubes in tubeless tires you should de-rate the tire by one letter grade, or about 18 mph (30 kph) off of the rated 10-minute top speed. If you're talking about installing an "H" rated tire (130 mph) on your MG, you hardly have much to worry about if it gets de-rated by 18 mph to 112 mph 10-minute top speed capability."

 

[Radd Cruisers]

Anybody have an origin for this misinformation? (It's complete nonsense to me!)

[...]

There's no special requirement for tyres associated with splits!

Actually, yes, there is.

Tires that are made for tubes are smooth on the inside. Tubeless tires are usually ridged on the inside, and over time the ridges wear into the tubes and decrease the lifespan of the tubes. The quality of the tubes therefor can make a big difference, and cheap tubes (usually imported from far off places where labour is cheap) are thin and of lower quality.

The "widow-maker" split rims were only found on some types of vehicles, but it would seem that over the years all split rims have been painted with the same brush. It is more likely that a split rim will come apart during mounting a tire than a tubeless tire on a one-piece rim. It is not BS that there is more inherent risk associated with mounting a tire back onto a split rim, but with proper practice those risks can be mitigated. And then this becomes more of a technical argument about statistics rather than anything else - in the end, it's hardly worth bickering over.

As for instant flats, a tube can leak quickly as in a tear, but that is really not so common. A tubeless tire can do the same thing. Most punctures are thorns and nails/screws and they tend to be slow leaks with tubed or tubeless tires. So, no real win/lose with either selection.

Tubeless tires can be under-inflated to a higher level as they generate less heat than that generated by a tubed type tire, but for most purposes this is a moot point because if you are comparing splits rims to tubeless rims, you are probably not talking about high floatation (wide) light truck tires that need to be aired down in the low single digits. Rather, you are probably talking about expedition (tall skinny) tires that want higher pressures...

The real benefits to tubeless is the tire/rim combo weighs less which generally leads to much better ride quality.

Repairs are not really an issue for either one - I have done 10s of 1000s of kilometers in the bush and of the beaten path and have repaired numerous tires - virtually all tubeless - and there is no reason not to run tubeless. Repairing either type is a non-event if you have a little experience under your belt - and a tire repair kit with plugs and patches. You can run tubes in your non-split rims if you want to.

- I prefer to run one-piece rims with a high quality tire that works well in our terrain.
- Flats are not that common, and if they do happen are easy enough to repair.
-Tube-type tyres are getting harder to find. Split rims are pretty much a thing of the past in North America on light duty trucks.

Take your pick and be happy...

This thread is more about how far and how long you can urinate than providing any really novel information.


Cheers, John

PS: salmon and crab for dinner - must go.

 

[lostmarbles]

Unfortunately for me ... I used the word "radial" rather loosely. (Thinking of "modern-tubeless" and forgetting about special hard-core off-road tyres like "swampers".)

A good quality tube should not be able to be punctured by a paper sticker. And suggesting such a thing indicates to me that the writer was exaggerating. (Although I would still remove the stickers - Same as I would blow out all the rubber cr@p left inside by the manufacturer too.)

Some tubes are excessively thin! So if you run tubes.. beware of the cheapies and "feel" to see how thick the wall is.

And I'd never recommend using a sander inside any tyre.

Sure there are ridges but they are smooth and can't pinch or wear a tube - in all the new tyres I've ever looked inside.

A small split on the other hand will indeed pinch a tube (and cause a slow leak - as happened with one of my present set of BFG tyres). But splits in the internal walls are manufacturing defects in any type of tyre!

If there are really tyres around with rough/abrasive inner walls - Don't choose them if you have splitrims and need to run tubes!

I think I've exhausted all I have to say here.

We agree to differ obviously. ...and having differences is natural.





Edit - Spotted/read your post after churning out this one John .... but it doesn't really necessitate a response form me anyway because I see little to disagree on. (However .... I will say just that I still see no special requirement for tyres that is peculiar to splits - ignoring the "tube-wearing tube-pinching inner walls that I've never yet come across.)

 

[DieselFumes]

Good reading! I have said it once.... and again! I think splits are cool- Just for the fact of they are not that common in North America

I have heard many say that the splits affect the ride quality and suspension.... I do not think they have ANY effect on how the suspension works split or not but it is the TIRE/air pressure that make all the difference. ie splits may have less tire options and most have stiff sidewalls???

Having a little more weight at the wheels might benefit you in an off-camber situation offroad.

Tire and wheel weight = parastatic drag on the motor/driveline = less power to the ground. (Along with many other components aluminum vs steel driveshaft, engine accessories, different flywheel weights, electric vs mechanical fan, pulley configuration/ratios.... etc. all play a part in parastatic drag)

Switch to a light weight wheel tire combo and your truck will feel faster.

Air those light weight wheels and tires up to max psi and it will ride like crap.

off to drive my splits !!!! Have a good weekend ya'll

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Now, this is anecdotal, but I believe I can speak at least a little about split vs. solid ride quality...

We have some old Dodges. They originally had split rims. They also have rather large, odd sized tires and don't accumulate many miles. It was getting harder and harder to find a shop who would even tough the split rims for us (these are the dangerous types of split rims), so we bought solid wheels from Stockton Wheel for two of them. On both trucks, we put the same exact tire onto the new wheel.

They both drive much, much smoother now. I suspect it had to do with the balance of the wheel/tire/tube combination. Same physical tires, the only difference was they lost the tubes, and were mounted on different, non split wheels.

I wouldn't hesitate to put splits on my 45 though, although I will use non-splits on it because the set I have is a little pitted where the split rim seats, and I'm missing one split rim out of 4. I'm planning on shipping them to Stockton Wheel so they can reuse my 16" centers and put them into new wheel rings. At least that's my plan today.

Dan

 

[lostmarbles]

...I have heard many say that the splits affect the ride quality and suspension.... I do not think they have ANY effect on how the suspension works split or not but it is the TIRE/air pressure that make all the difference. ie splits may have less tire options and most have stiff sidewalls???
Having a little more weight at the wheels might benefit you in an off-camber situation offroad.
Tire and wheel weight = parastatic drag on the motor/driveline = less power to the ground. (Along with many other components aluminum vs steel driveshaft, engine accessories, different flywheel weights, electric vs mechanical fan, pulley configuration/ratios.... etc. all play a part in parastatic drag)
Switch to a light weight wheel tire combo and your truck will feel faster.
Air those light weight wheels and tires up to max psi and it will ride like crap......

.... so we bought solid wheels from Stockton Wheel for two of them. On both trucks, we put the same exact tire onto the new wheel.
They both drive much, much smoother now. I suspect it had to do with the balance of the wheel/tire/tube combination. Same physical tires, the only difference was they lost the tubes, and were mounted on different, non split wheels.
I wouldn't hesitate to put splits on my 45 though... Dan

Well to continue the "pissing competition" (as John so eloquently puts it ).......and in support of DieselFumes post above...

I think "wheel weight" is irrelevant for ride-quality when you're dealing with solid (beam) axles like I have on my forty. (Different story with independant suspension.)

And besides that .... splits typically run "skinnies" whereas non-split wheels generally run wider tyres. So I wouldn't be surpised if my wheels are actually lighter than what the average 40-series is running. (Next time I take one off I'll try and weigh it.)

And I don't think the effects of changing from split to non-split on a different type of vehicle (where the styles of wheels and suspension systems may be significantly different) can necessarily be applied to my vehicle. (But your experience is still interesting and a worthwhile contribution to this thread IMO Dan.)

 

[DanS HJ-45]

And I don't think the effects of changing from split to non-split on a different type of vehicle (where the styles of wheels and suspension systems may be significantly different) can necessarily be applied to my vehicle. (But your experience is still interesting and a worthwhile contribution to this thread IMO Dan.)

The trucks in question are Dodge Power Wagons. There is no closer relative of the cruiser that I can think of. Big, heavy 4WD, leaf springs, solid axles, shackles located the same way, etc.... Tall skinnies to the same tall skinnies.

It wasn't so much a change in ride quality, more a change in rotational smoothness.

If I had a complete set of splits for my 45, I'd run them and then swap to solid wheels just to see what difference it made. Like a big scientific experiment/pissing match.



Dan

 

[herbs]

As has been said, use good quality heavy duty tubes and be liberal with the talcum powder everywhere in the tyre carcass. As for ride quality, I've switched from 33x12.5x15 Maxxis Bighorns to 14 ply bias 7.50r16s, ride is so similar it isn't funny. Only problem I find with bias tyres is that they get a bloody flat spot after they sit for a while and it takes a few kms for them to go round again.

 

[Roberto]

I am running splits with 235-85-16's and heavy they are and I am looking at getting some one piece aluminu rims and a little taller and wider tires to try out but I read all the posts/ threads on splits before deciding to purchase them for I was doing a resto in which my BJ42 is from AUS. It was simple and easy and safe for we did it safely. I am a novice landcruiser guy here but I will say that I came back from the middle east last year and every new toyota truck over the there and I mean NEW is still running split rims? I asked myself why is that and only thing I come up with is the terrain or that is it that they are behind the power curve? We here in the U.S strive for convenience and efficiency which is what we need in our ever so fast paced lifestyles and we dont have the terrain and backcountry as these other countries still do so this is all I come up with at the time. I am nostalgic and love the look of the way it was designed for the most part, for I to like being a little diff here in the U.S where as most said noone will touch the rims which is true, I found 1 out of 3, but I know ow to do it safely and will continue to do so. I agree totally that repairing a tubeless tire is probably just as simple as changing the tube in a tire....1/2 dozen the other right. Toyota split rims on some of the overseas 60 series actually have the ring on the inside of the rim which makes it even safer in my mind....change tube, inflate slightly and then mount with lug nuts and then inflate the rest???? Wish I could actually get a pair of these for they like the late model white spoke 40 series rims here in the U.S.

R

 

[cruiser_guy]

I asked myself why is that and only thing I come up with is the terrain or that is it that they are behind the power curve? We here in the U.S strive for convenience and efficiency which is what we need in our ever so fast paced lifestyles and we dont have the terrain and backcountry as these other countries still do so this is all I come up with at the time.

The reason I come up with is that old habits die hard in some countries. In Central America and where I have been in Africa, turbos are frowned upon. Why? Because turbos "are very unreliable". Now is that fact or is that due to the way they drive and maintain the vehicles? I think it is the same with the splits. We have/want splits because "that's the way it's done" even though every tire shop can deal with a standard rim. I ask, "What's the benefit?" and I come up with lots for the turbo and little for the split rim.

Can a split rim make some things easier? Yes, of course. Is that worth it to me for the drawbacks of getting special places to work on it and that, NO!! Carry a spare and keep it maintained. If off road for a long distance away from a repair place, pack plugs. Same for turbos. They can be unreliable when "rode hard and put away wet" but a small amount of care overcomes the "problem".

 

[Rodroo]

Good information and a timely post. I just got back from a 1200km trip that included two flats. One was at highway speed and the second was at low speed. I was loaded medium heavy and the drivers side rear gave out at speed. It was an immediate flat and gave me issues with maintaining control. I spent the rest of the trip counting pennies trying to figure out how to get a set of one piece rims. I have no desire to repeat the experience of a catastrophic tube failure.

The second flat was a whole different animal as it was my spare tube that already had a repair and that old repair let go while idling along in traffic, so it was not quite the ordeal.

One thing that I have not seen mentioned here is the use of Slime or other similar products. For me, that is one of the draws to a tubeless tire. I can load that joker with Slime and not have worries about the small punctures.