Why can't an 80 flex like..... (1 Viewer)

.....the other 4-wheelers I see? No, this isn't a trick question so drilling me isn't necessary.

I'm curious why modified Cherokees and other modified live axle rigs can flex (mainly the front axle) so much better than the typical modified 80's? I know I've seen 1 or 2 80's that have some wild flex in the front though they're so rare. Considering the live axle, why is this? (Cause I'd sure luv it in mine!)

I think it has some thing to do with the 5 link in the Cherokees as opposed to the 3 link in the 80's. As being a former ZJ owner I can tell you one thing... unibodies suck and control arms should be longer than my forearm for an acceptable ride. Of course that's just my opinion

I think it's the sway bars. Look at ammos rig. Only thing he's done is remove the sway-bars. He's got some serious flex. Remove your sway bars and see what happens.

Swaybars is probably a better explanation than mine. Oh lets also add shock length as another factor.

Darwood said:

Oh lets also add shock length as another factor.

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Yes, on that too.

Huh? That's weird, because none of the Jeeps around here can touch an 80 with regards to flex, all things being equal. Wranglers, surprisingly, seem to be the worst. What you might be seeing are some pretty extremely mod'd Jeep suspensions (aftermarket support for Heep is HUGE). But out of the box, or even with similar mods, I wouldn't thing a Heep could touch an 80.

My $0.02,

one factor also is the 2 lower links to the front axle (the radius arms) the 2 bushings per side fight each other and restrict the articulation.

dclee said:

Huh? That's weird, because none of the Jeeps around here can touch an 80 with regards to flex, all things being equal. Wranglers, surprisingly, seem to be the worst. What you might be seeing are some pretty extremely mod'd Jeep suspensions (aftermarket support for Heep is HUGE). But out of the box, or even with similar mods, I wouldn't thing a Heep could touch an 80.

My $0.02,

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Yes, stock is different. Modified is another story. Even with my sway bars disco'd the travel is the same (shock length limits this). Here's the $10000000 question:

Why can't one simply get longer front arms and shocks and slap them on a 80 so the thing flexes like this Jeep?:

fj40m4 said:

one factor also is the 2 lower links to the front axle (the radius arms) the 2 bushings per side fight each other and restrict the articulation.

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so isn't it easy to fix this? Sorry, I'm real dumb on this stuff. That's why I ask. J

I have yet to see a jeep wagon on a trail with only bolt on mods that can flex as well as my 80.
Nevertheless, the sway bars on an 80 are not the answer you guys are looking for either. I've been running w/o sway bars for a year now so I can assure you they do not limit flex, they only make it more difficult to flex.
I will however agree that the front suspension is far less supple than the rear. (There was a big thread on Pirate about this a few months back) The general consensus is the front is handicapped by (among other things) the design of the front control arms. Any flex that you have up front is provided by the bushings in the front control arms. To illustrate the point, I'll steal someone's explanation: Imagine you replaced the rubber in the control arm bushings with brass. You would have up and down movement of the axle, but no flex.
Christo used to sell control arms with an AWR joint in them to help remedy this, but I don’t think he caries them any more.

Curran

ShottsUZJ100 said:

so isn't it easy to fix this? Sorry, I'm real dumb on this stuff. That's why I ask. J

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Hey Shotts,

He is right, the design of the front suspension is almost identical to the Land Rovers. The bushings between the arm and the axle only allow so much movement before they bind, limiting cross axle articulation. Straight drop and compression travel is not hindered though.

Is it an easy fix? Not really, though there have been several creative solutions in the Rover community (not sure if I am allowed to discuss that here though, many seem very touchy when the name is mentioned, and Beowulf already has issues with me apparently). Let me know if you want further info on some of the Rover Guys solutions, and I will fill you in off-line...

Post up

Curran

best, you can share. That's why this board is here. I was just sitting here envisioning some type of swivle balls that could be welded or mounted into the bushings. Hmm.....

Ok, let's see here....

80s' front suspensions are a radius arm setup w/ two bushing per side as noted above. If you imagine the axle's path of motion as it articulates(one side up, one side down) you will see that the axle actually twists as it moves. Because the control arms are attached at 4 points, two things can happen, the bushings give and allow the aforementioned deflection, or the axle tubes twist. Obviously the axle tubes don't twist, so the bushings must deflect. One of the things I noticed about the 80's radius arms right off the bat is how relatively small the bushings are. When you compare these to the bushings used on most Jeep setups, they look absolutely tiny. Because they are so small, they can only deflect so much. Add to the fact that the fact that many are installing the OME bushings which I *believe* are poly(someone please correct me if I'm mistaken), and you have very limited bushing deflection.

I would imagine there are ways to solve this problem, such as wristing one of the control arms, fabbing control arms with provisions for larger/softer bushings, or simply removing one of the connection points(leaving you with 2 connections/bushings/bolts on one side, and 1 on the other). This would alleviate a substantial amount of bind and I believe open up the flex substantially. Of course once that happens, the shock lengths, brakelines, and swaybar become the limiting factor.

The problem with opening up the flex in the front is that the flex is no longer balanced and you get what I like to call the backhoe effect. This is where the rear axle feels as if it is fixed to the chassis and only the front articulates. This is probably the number one biggest problem with Cherokees. The rear leaf suspensions don't flex very well at all(without a good bit of custom work) because the fronts flex SO easily.

Here's a picture of my old Cherokee when it had a bolt-on 4.5" kit:


and here's a picture with my 3-link setup(radius arm style, but missing the 4th connection point):


Many are impressed by the amount of flex shown in the last pic, but honestly it was a detriment to the rig. As you can see the coils would fall out, and the rear suspension didn't do much of anything. This leads to very akward and sometimes unstable situations when traversing an obstacle. There are a lot of things that I think could open up the 80's suspension considerably, but since I have commited to not 'wheel mine nearly as hard as I did the Cherokee, I will probably not be experimenting with them any time soon.

Hope this was helpful.

Ary

Damn! That is some serious flex out of that cherokee. The only picture of a heavily flexing 80 iv'e seen is on cardomain.com and it is pretty bad ass. It is white and it is flexing a ton. I will give you the link once cardomain.com starts working for me.

Ok, follow ya all (amazing ).

I too can picture control arm swivels or whatever. I just to picture more than we get. I know this shot of my buddy Walt's 80 looks amazing. I just thought there could be something we could do to extend that front some more.

Here is the link for that amazing flexed 80! http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/273373

but notice that rear coil is completely unseated. THat's not good.

There is a pic of an 80 in one of the TT magazines showing 13 inches of travel all around. Real good flex.

Yikes. That's outrageous. I wonder though how that actually would run the trails. Hmmm?

concretejungle said:

but notice that rear coil is completely unseated. THat's not good.

There is a pic of an 80 in one of the TT magazines showing 13 inches of travel all around. Real good flex.

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Ya Podvins. And I've wheeled with Land Cruiser Phils 80 which has some of those early trick control arms. I think he has the same 13" front travel.