Dude! What a mess! Is the trans fluid ok? Don’t forget about diffs and tcase too. I have had my fair share of water related mishaps and they get spendy in a hurry…
Builds Another LS swap? Really??? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter ARJMN
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- ls swap lx450 tucson csc
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Saddletramp
GOLD Star
So sorry to hear this Jason. I know you will get it worked out but frustration sets in whenever we have multiple projects going. Let me know if I can help you in any way.
Steve
Steve
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- #263
Let's catch up on the clean up! I posted pics of the mud and sludge I had to clean out of the interior, so now I can show you a bit of the details of the heart surgery. Once I discovered that there was nastiness inside the engine, I took one look at the spindly little Danas on the JKs and thought better than to try to tow my ~6000lb LX450 out over that terrain ahead. I knew the motor was coming out and apart regardless, and I have been wishing I had upgraded a few things the first time around, sooooo.......I was not terribly worried about wear of the internals. I did however drive out with the windows down, radio off, with a tuned ear on the sounds of the engine. I listened for signs of a bearing spinning, or of anything trying to seize. I made it about 6 miles out from the overnight spot to highway 177. She was definitely NOT happy with the task, but she did it and was shut down before any big bang. The weekend after the deep dive, I had some help lined up and we got the 6.0 pulled out. The week leading up to this, I spent a little time here and there get the peripherals put of the way, and most importantly, my precious Ron Davis radiator. That thing works amazingly well and cost WAY too much to risk any unintended contact, so out it came.
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- #264
Extracting that thing was quite the effort, as I said above. It was made more difficult by the fact that I wanted to pull only the engine, not the whole powertrain. It was further complicated by my decision to leave the exhaust in place. That resulted in it hanging up the motor and making the final pull a big PITA. I couple big monkey jumps and some destroyed exhaust seals later, she came popping out.
We broke for lunch at In-N-Out, and then headed back to get into tearing down the motor. I wanted to carry the momentum due to the risk of any remaining moisture causing corrosion inside the block. This turned out to be a non-issue because engines get hoy enough to cook off water given time, and there were no sign of rust inside. There was however about a half inch of silt, dirt, and complete nastiness in the sump. This was to be expected. It is also part of the reason the sump is there(ish). Great news is the top end looks great. Less great is that the cylinder walls are not perfect. Less less great is that the cam and crank is most likely toast.
We broke for lunch at In-N-Out, and then headed back to get into tearing down the motor. I wanted to carry the momentum due to the risk of any remaining moisture causing corrosion inside the block. This turned out to be a non-issue because engines get hoy enough to cook off water given time, and there were no sign of rust inside. There was however about a half inch of silt, dirt, and complete nastiness in the sump. This was to be expected. It is also part of the reason the sump is there(ish). Great news is the top end looks great. Less great is that the cylinder walls are not perfect. Less less great is that the cam and crank is most likely toast.
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- #265
I had to stop when I got to the harmonic balancer because despite having 3 different pullers, none of them fit. Easy fix, Amazon to the rescue. I ordered one with next day Prime, and got off my barking dogs. I was one worn out hombre. It was all I could do to strip off my filthy shop clothes, shower, and crawl in bed after a quick bite to eat. (but I love it!) Next day, the puller was delivered and I got the balancer pulled in very short order. I could then remove the timing cover, VVT drive, and timing chain. Rear cover and next up was the main caps and piston/rod assemblies. They all showed signs of wear and contamination, but not one showed any sign of heat. Very surprising. If I had no need to salvage this engine, it would have been interesting to have continued flushing it and see how long it would run. Clearances are loose now, but I bet it would have gone a long time.
That aside, you can see what river silt does to an engine. The pistons are scuffed on the outboard side of the skirt, the crank journals are worn to grooves, the cam lobes are scuffed and marred, and the cylinders look to match the pistons. Essentially, by most all standards, as well as mine, the internals will soon be useful only for scrap or art.
That aside, you can see what river silt does to an engine. The pistons are scuffed on the outboard side of the skirt, the crank journals are worn to grooves, the cam lobes are scuffed and marred, and the cylinders look to match the pistons. Essentially, by most all standards, as well as mine, the internals will soon be useful only for scrap or art.
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- #266
The whole thing is now torn down to just the block, valley cover, and a few vagrant sensors. The #8 cylinder is the worst of the lot, but even that one can be saved. The block is 100% worth saving and will be either a hone or .010" over bore away from being ready for new pistons. From here, I will decide what direction to go. Well, to be more correct, the machine shop's assessment of everything will tell me what direction to row. On the low end is a crank grind and oversized bearings with all the new bits above it to complete the equation. On the high end is a 408 stroker kit and a shotgun blast of parts from the Summit Racing catalogue. I will drop it off for measurement Friday at Baker Machine, and will be waiting for a report when I return from next weeks travels. Stay tuned.
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- #267
Hey, I appreciate that Steve. Can you help me buy/build a place in the county with a few acres, a shop, and three-phase power? I will get there soon enough when I get these two projects done. I need to clear the plate a bit and then the focus will be to relocate my growing empire of poop. Hope you see the humor I intended in that.
- Thread starter
- #268
I have been asked several times how I think the water/silt/mud got into the engine. After the teardown and review of things, here is what I believe happened. If you know me, this could get a bit off in the weeds...
When I built the right the first time around, I opted to delete the PCV, or Pressure Control Valve, from the harness and ECM flash. The PCV opens and closes intermittently to evacuate the vapors and pressure that build up in the crankcase. All engines regardless of age or condition, have some degree of blow-by in the cylinders. This is the escape of combustion gasses past the piston rings and into the crank case. This is one of the prime contributors to motor oil turning black. It is carbon, or spent/unspent fuel getting into the oil. This blow-by also results in positive pressure being built up in the crankcase. This pressure MUST be vented, or you will blow oil past your main seals, fail them altogether, or a number of other possible actions. Needless to say, you don't want that. The simplest way forward is to simply vent them to atmosphere. That is the way it was done for decades, all the way up until someone discovered that crankcase vents were to blame for endangered tree butterflies in Borneo. So the EPA came in an said "thou shall not" and we got recirculation systems, EGRs, and enough vacuum lines to spin a web under the hood in the 80's. Gasoline engines produce a great deal of vacuum under load, and engineers can make use of that vacuum to suck the crankcase gasses out by tapping into the intake downstream of the throttle body on a fuel injected engine or after the carburetor on a, well, carbureted engine. Going back to the PCV, it is used to modulate the amount of vacuum allowed in the crankcase. Too little and you get positive pressure, too much and you get issues on the opposite side of the scale. Due to the fact that I live in the emissions control zone of Pima county, I had to keep the emissions equipment of the newer element in my engine swap. Since I put a 2012 engine in a 1997 car, I had to meet 2012 standards. This meant catalytic converters downstream and evacuation systems up stream. Remember where I said I chose to delete the PCV and its code from the flash? Well, what I saw as a needless layer of BS on the engine might have actually saved my engine. Since I deleted the modulating element(PCV), but still had to "meet" 2012 emissions, I made the ill fated decision to plumb the crankcase breathers directly into the intake. This meant that anytime I had the motor under a load, the crankcase was seeing the full vacuum of the intake. How did that bite me you ask...
When I sank the axles in the Gila bringing me to a halt like a beached whale, I hogged on the skinny pedal trying to rock back and forth to free myself. Even in low range, the engine was under a good bit of load with all the resistance to wheel spin offered by the silt laden mud. This meant the engine was generating a good bit vacuum, and sucking equally hard on the crankcase. While the engine on whole was water/air tight mostly all over, there was one weak point that I noticed back in 2019 when I prepped the LS to drop in the LX...the dipstick. The dipstick resides inside a steel tube that is swaged to set the insertion depth. Below this swage is located a groove that contains the tiny little o-ring tasked with sealing the gap between the tube and the machined port in the block. While this single seal in enough to do the job under "normal use", under the circumstances I created, it was not. The port, and thus the seal, were both submerged well below the waterline and four 33" KO2s made sure there was plenty of churning water for the excessive amount of vacuum to draw right in past the seal and into the oil pan. Funny thing is that the oil pan is where the engine stores its oil just before it is sucked up and pumped through the whole engine. Suck, pump, screech, you have what you see in the posts above.
All things considered, that setup lasted about 26,000 miles and 3 good years. It is a great lesson that I will never forget. When I get the motor back together, I will be venting to atmosphere through a catch can, and will leave the vacuum of the engine to the air filter and snorkel to handle.
When I built the right the first time around, I opted to delete the PCV, or Pressure Control Valve, from the harness and ECM flash. The PCV opens and closes intermittently to evacuate the vapors and pressure that build up in the crankcase. All engines regardless of age or condition, have some degree of blow-by in the cylinders. This is the escape of combustion gasses past the piston rings and into the crank case. This is one of the prime contributors to motor oil turning black. It is carbon, or spent/unspent fuel getting into the oil. This blow-by also results in positive pressure being built up in the crankcase. This pressure MUST be vented, or you will blow oil past your main seals, fail them altogether, or a number of other possible actions. Needless to say, you don't want that. The simplest way forward is to simply vent them to atmosphere. That is the way it was done for decades, all the way up until someone discovered that crankcase vents were to blame for endangered tree butterflies in Borneo. So the EPA came in an said "thou shall not" and we got recirculation systems, EGRs, and enough vacuum lines to spin a web under the hood in the 80's. Gasoline engines produce a great deal of vacuum under load, and engineers can make use of that vacuum to suck the crankcase gasses out by tapping into the intake downstream of the throttle body on a fuel injected engine or after the carburetor on a, well, carbureted engine. Going back to the PCV, it is used to modulate the amount of vacuum allowed in the crankcase. Too little and you get positive pressure, too much and you get issues on the opposite side of the scale. Due to the fact that I live in the emissions control zone of Pima county, I had to keep the emissions equipment of the newer element in my engine swap. Since I put a 2012 engine in a 1997 car, I had to meet 2012 standards. This meant catalytic converters downstream and evacuation systems up stream. Remember where I said I chose to delete the PCV and its code from the flash? Well, what I saw as a needless layer of BS on the engine might have actually saved my engine. Since I deleted the modulating element(PCV), but still had to "meet" 2012 emissions, I made the ill fated decision to plumb the crankcase breathers directly into the intake. This meant that anytime I had the motor under a load, the crankcase was seeing the full vacuum of the intake. How did that bite me you ask...
When I sank the axles in the Gila bringing me to a halt like a beached whale, I hogged on the skinny pedal trying to rock back and forth to free myself. Even in low range, the engine was under a good bit of load with all the resistance to wheel spin offered by the silt laden mud. This meant the engine was generating a good bit vacuum, and sucking equally hard on the crankcase. While the engine on whole was water/air tight mostly all over, there was one weak point that I noticed back in 2019 when I prepped the LS to drop in the LX...the dipstick. The dipstick resides inside a steel tube that is swaged to set the insertion depth. Below this swage is located a groove that contains the tiny little o-ring tasked with sealing the gap between the tube and the machined port in the block. While this single seal in enough to do the job under "normal use", under the circumstances I created, it was not. The port, and thus the seal, were both submerged well below the waterline and four 33" KO2s made sure there was plenty of churning water for the excessive amount of vacuum to draw right in past the seal and into the oil pan. Funny thing is that the oil pan is where the engine stores its oil just before it is sucked up and pumped through the whole engine. Suck, pump, screech, you have what you see in the posts above.
All things considered, that setup lasted about 26,000 miles and 3 good years. It is a great lesson that I will never forget. When I get the motor back together, I will be venting to atmosphere through a catch can, and will leave the vacuum of the engine to the air filter and snorkel to handle.
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Saddletramp
GOLD Star
Money is but one venue for generosity. I was thinking more along the lines of parting it out
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- #270
HAHAH all in good fun, Steve! I do have to say it though....PARTING IT OUT!?! How could I give up on such a noble steed. She's got at least another 25 years in her.Money is but one venue for generosity. I was thinking more along the lines of parting it out
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- #271
Quick update: As much as I hoped to have a beautiful long block waiting on me when I got back from a 24 day work trip....that was not the case. I gave them the go ahead, but somewhere there was confusion as they reported on my return that they don't order parts without a deposit. I said ok, I will be there tomorrow to do that. I drove down, put in a $2500 deposit and they go the ball rolling on a complete Scat rotating assembly. In the grand scheme, it is such a minor annoyance that it doesn't matter. Anyone else recently read The Subtle Art of Not Giving a ****? Good book. Anyway, so as much as I had hoped to have my LX back on the road in time to lead my planned July run to the San Juan Mountains in Colorado, I just don't see that happening now. Stay tuned, I'll try to get some more pics soon.
So are you doing a 408?
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- #273
- Thread starter
- #274
I had enough people tell me it was a bad idea for this application, that I finally listened to them. It would have been a long wait on parts, required premium gas, and likely would have stressed the drivline, especially knowing me…
Ended up doing a Skat rotating assembly and rods, cant recall the pistons…. It will end up being a 6.1 liter and will be just a bit better than stock in all ways. I hope.
Ended up doing a Skat rotating assembly and rods, cant recall the pistons…. It will end up being a 6.1 liter and will be just a bit better than stock in all ways. I hope.
I had a lot of people tell me almost the same thing when rebuilding my lq4. We must have talked to the same people haha. They acted like I was crazy for even considering it. Now I've researched quite a bit I really wish I went with the 408. I went with the 6.1 as well and it's what is getting me down the road currently. But I still really want the down low torque the 408 would have given. Those people that gave me that advice I don't think understand how much power a SUV soaks up. Its not a camaro. It really angers me because it wouldn't have cost much more for the 408. I would have kept the compression reasonable to run low grade fuel.
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- #276
Yeah, I h
I have run that same scenario through my head on my decision not to do a 408 stroker. Hard to keep the compression low enough for 87 and when I head to the Rockies where 91 or even 89 is considered premium, I didn't want to be struggling to find good fuel or carrying octane booster. I would love the grunt a 408 would provide, but when I am honest with myself, the 6.0 did just fine.
My hope, is that my Cummins swap is so fantastic that I decide to sell the LS swapped rig. It will be a heavy torquey chugger of a rig that I do not plan to bounce off of rocks, but who knows until its done. I also have a 5.3 LS I picked up for so little I had to have it. I would like to run through it and do something fun, maybe a turbo or stroke it to a 5.7. It would be a great motor for a 60 series. or a Jeep based rock rig(gasp!).
I have run that same scenario through my head on my decision not to do a 408 stroker. Hard to keep the compression low enough for 87 and when I head to the Rockies where 91 or even 89 is considered premium, I didn't want to be struggling to find good fuel or carrying octane booster. I would love the grunt a 408 would provide, but when I am honest with myself, the 6.0 did just fine.
My hope, is that my Cummins swap is so fantastic that I decide to sell the LS swapped rig. It will be a heavy torquey chugger of a rig that I do not plan to bounce off of rocks, but who knows until its done. I also have a 5.3 LS I picked up for so little I had to have it. I would like to run through it and do something fun, maybe a turbo or stroke it to a 5.7. It would be a great motor for a 60 series. or a Jeep based rock rig(gasp!).
- Thread starter
- #277
Cross your fingers, when I last talked to the machine shop, all the remaining parts were in stock in the Phoenix warehouse and I may have the engine back by the end of the month. Of course, I probably just jinxed myself, but we will see.
- Thread starter
- #278
Figured I would give an update on the effort to revive ole' Lexi Jo. I got word from the machine shop that after balancing, installing the crank, and then bolting in the 1st piston, they immediately saw a problem in that the piston was sticking above the deck about half and inch. Turns out the crank that arrived was a 4.00" stroke where we needed a 3.622" stroke. They called the supplier(in Phoenix) and told them the crank sent was labeled wrong. The second crank showed up and it was a 24t reluctor wheel, not a 58t that was needed. A second call was placed to the supplier and a third crank was sent out. As of Monday, the crank was already a day late on promised delivery, and the whole rotating assembly will have to be rebalanced once it arrives. I could get bummed out with the delays, or I could chalk it up to being a first world problem and accept that it is still too dang hot to be out there in the garage anyway. I choose to be calm and cool about it all. In the grand scheme, it is an insignificant bump in the road and once the engine is done and the weather cools, it will be a few long weekends away from rumbling again. Stay tuned.
- Thread starter
- #279
Sunday, August 27th, and still no engine... I guess the above stated crank debacle is dragging out. Hopefully this week I will have it. From there, I will dive in and try to get 1 of 3 active projects back on the road. Been working on my car hauler this weekend to install a Badlands 9500 winch. Hand cranking a come-along to load a dead 80 Series so for the birds. The mount and parts are fabricated and painted, just have to do final assembly and wiring today. Will be nice having done for function, but also to get that dang trailer off my truck. I don't have a secure storage spot at my house and it is a 20 minute drive to my buddy's place where I keep it. I'll post up some pics of the finished product.
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- #280
Well, less than an hour in the 104 degree humidity that results after you have a great nighttime monsoon storm, and I am flat done. I had my full brimmed hat on to shade my dome, but I was sweating so much that it would pool above the sweat band and rush out anytime I lifted the hat. All I could manage was a coat of paint on the mount and installation of the winch. Wiring will have to wait, so I'll just update you on the work thus far.
I added this car hauler to my fleet this past June. Before that, I had been borrowing a buddy's rig each time I needed to haul a rig, but I hate borrowing stuff as I tend to perpetually be Murphy's Bit@@. Without going into detail, I wanted one that was capable of easily transporting a 1 ton LWB rig with ease, so along came this one. It is a 22' 12,000lb capacity unit made by Cardinal Trailers, a now defunct manufacturer. It was also a repo which made the price right. I got it for less than I could buy a new 7000lb unit to give you an idea. It was a bare canvas otherwise, so I needed to add the requisite items for normal duties like a tongue box and winch. Harbor Freight supplied me with a coupon for the Badlands 9500 and Amazon supplied the rest.
The effort started with an exploration of what was possible. I had on hand a winch cradle from a Jeep JK winch bumper, and being made of 1/4" plate, I felt it more than up to the task. Its overkill in fact... Anyway, my pack rat nature really helps me out sometimes, and I saved on the cost and effort of fabbing/buying one. I did a rough fit up to see where the angles would lied and was happy to see that it located really well on the stop tube at the front of the trailer. I really wanted to be able to drag a dead rig on to the deck without the cable contacting or rubbing on the dovetail, because OCD and all. I was happy to see that I was going to realize that ultimately non-essential detail in the proposed location.
With a lay out string stretched reasonable tight, I had about three inches of clearance between the "winch line" and the dovetail transition based upon a hook height of a stock 80 Series recovery point. That is taken at the point the tires would begin rolling up the ramps.
I added this car hauler to my fleet this past June. Before that, I had been borrowing a buddy's rig each time I needed to haul a rig, but I hate borrowing stuff as I tend to perpetually be Murphy's Bit@@. Without going into detail, I wanted one that was capable of easily transporting a 1 ton LWB rig with ease, so along came this one. It is a 22' 12,000lb capacity unit made by Cardinal Trailers, a now defunct manufacturer. It was also a repo which made the price right. I got it for less than I could buy a new 7000lb unit to give you an idea. It was a bare canvas otherwise, so I needed to add the requisite items for normal duties like a tongue box and winch. Harbor Freight supplied me with a coupon for the Badlands 9500 and Amazon supplied the rest.
The effort started with an exploration of what was possible. I had on hand a winch cradle from a Jeep JK winch bumper, and being made of 1/4" plate, I felt it more than up to the task. Its overkill in fact... Anyway, my pack rat nature really helps me out sometimes, and I saved on the cost and effort of fabbing/buying one. I did a rough fit up to see where the angles would lied and was happy to see that it located really well on the stop tube at the front of the trailer. I really wanted to be able to drag a dead rig on to the deck without the cable contacting or rubbing on the dovetail, because OCD and all. I was happy to see that I was going to realize that ultimately non-essential detail in the proposed location.
With a lay out string stretched reasonable tight, I had about three inches of clearance between the "winch line" and the dovetail transition based upon a hook height of a stock 80 Series recovery point. That is taken at the point the tires would begin rolling up the ramps.
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