Rivian R1S vs LC thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[PDoyle]

Recardo.

 

[Specialeyes]

Let's be honest. Most of us have multiple vehicles, live in big houses with AC or heat running most of the time, buy quite literally tons of plastic crap shipped from China in a big honking boat every year, travel when not strictly necessary, consume industrially produced food products several times a day, water our lawns from rapidly depleting natural water sources, etc, etc,, etc, ad nauseum. Every single thing we do as a human being in an industrialized country has a significant environmental impact.

@1Maverick You're right to call out the environmental degradation caused by lithium mining. Of course conventional cars require ore mining and refining as well. One must also weigh the harm caused by lithium mining against the harm caused by vehicle emissions vis a vis climate change. Not saying EV's aren't without a large carbon footprint, but depending on how they are built and used over time, there is the potential to significantly reduce the amount of carbon released into the atmosphere compared to ICE. Would hydrogen be better? Could be. No doubt it would also have consequences over time, some un-anticipated.

People also frequently make the argument that it is best to get a reliable vehicle, maintain it well and keep it running until it dies of old age at a half-million miles. There is definitely merit to that argument if we're talking about a corolla, but nobody is doing the environment any favors by driving a 200, period. Big SUV's (whether ICE or EV) are luxury items or lifestyle accessories. Very few people actually need to drive one.

At the end of the day, nearly everything we do is godawful for the environment. If we want to get really controversial, I'll throw in: worst of all, having more than two children. As red-blooded, developed-country consumers our options are: 1) move to the city, live in a small apartment, ride public transit and a bike, eat like a farmer's market loving hipster 2) move to the woods, build a cabin with our bare hands and live as a hunter/gatherer 3) make the best choices we can given the available options while balancing our own personal desires and quality of life. If you truly care about the environment above all else, the very best thing you can do is off yourself, but I don't see anyone doing that.

I think the "which is worst for the environment" argument is pointless. Everything is bad for the environment except walking in homemade shoes.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The bigger problem is ourselves and our lifestyles. (Particulary here in America) Look at the amount of people we have on the planet coupled with our consumerism habits. How much food do we waste every day? Nobody needs a new phone, tablet, or laptop every year. Many folks who live in a sub divided mcmansion would do just fine in a smaller, denser condo in the city. Same goes for cars. How many of us own more than one? If we are being honest with ourselves most people don't need a SUV, truck, or sports sedan and would make due just fine with something like a Prius to commute back and forth. I've visited other countries where cars are not the main source of transportation. Bicycles, walking, and public transit lead the way. I could keep going on and on but hopefully you all get the point that it's not simply a matter of "EV's are bad" and "ICE is good" There are pro's and con's to both but also other areas we would be wise to look at when it comes to improving the current health of our planet and preserving it for those we leave behind.

 

[Artie]

If you truly care about the environment above all else, the very best thing you can do is off yourself, but I don't see anyone doing that.

I’ve had the displeasure of meeting adamant child free individuals who’ve done so because of environmental reasons a few times in parenting life. I will inevitably ask why they haven’t made the ultimate environment saving choice. The answers have been interesting and often lead to subject changes. For me, I wish I had 10 kids but I just ran out of time.

 

[bloc]

I am curious: What happens to the EV batteries when they reach end-of-life, as all batteries do? I don't want to hear: "Well, they get recycled". As a geologist, I have looked into this. There is some interesting reading out there.

I would be all in on EVs if it was not the problems with the power supply. Electric motors are ideally suited for traction motors, far better than ICEs. If I could drive into the charging station, plug in, trot off to the Necessary, buy a drink and bag of chips, go back to the car, unplug it and hop in for another 300-400 miles, it would be a no-brainer. It just ain't there yet. Also, can't carry jerricans for an EV. I ain't yet seen a portable back-up battery that can get you out of a sticky situation. In the boonies, I can grab my jerrican and dump in another five gallons.

An aside: I wonder if all the money and research into EVs was instead spent on making ICEs more adiabatic? What would increasing efficiency from around 35% to say, 60% - 70% or so accomplish? Maybe that would require moving away from piston engines to some other design. The biggest problem I see is keeping the fuel charge from spontaneously combusting/detonating before it is in the cylinder.

70 or even 60 isn’t happening, and nothing will beat ICE if it’s burning fuel that can be distributed with the current network. It was a monumental feat for Mercedes F1 to hit 50% on the dyno, and that is an engine that must be pre-heated to operating temp before it can be turned over.

Look into jet ignition for an interesting fact on part of how these cutting edge engines make the power and efficiency they do. But there are still practical limits to how much work you will get out of something that will have waste heat.

 

[Specialeyes]

Does anyone have an insight on hydrogen engines? I know Toyota is pioneering that tech with the Mirai. It sounds like a promising alternative to full on BEV.

On an unrelated note I just want to say as a car enthusiast and motorsport fan I admit the idea of no longer having the ICE does bum me out a bit.

 

[LCH21]

70 or even 60 isn’t happening, and nothing will beat ICE if it’s burning fuel that can be distributed with the current network. It was a monumental feat for Mercedes F1 to hit 50% on the dyno, and that is an engine that must be pre-heated to operating temp before it can be turned over.

Look into jet ignition for an interesting fact on part of how these cutting edge engines make the power and efficiency they do. But there are still practical limits to how much work you will get out of something that will have waste heat.

With current technology, no, it's not going to happen. My point exactly. Thus the need for continued research and development. It was a shame that Chrysler's work on turbines was scrapped back in the 60's. That could have been interesting.

Even with batteries, we are running up against the physical limitations of the materials used. For any given battery chemistry, you can cram in so many electrons.

 

[stonepa]

True, but speeding up the process of damaging the environment doesn’t help anyone. Buying a Land Cruiser if kept through its 30+yr lifespan is much better then replacing it with an EV. Replacing something that’s not broken for the sake of replacing is not going to help the environment. Heck, replacing your engine every 300k+ miles is still better on the environment Ev is not the answer Time will prove this.

Roughly 500,000 gallons of water goes into extracting 1 ton of lithium. To put that into perspective, it takes around 1 tablespoon of lithium to produce 1 cell phone, meaning, 500,000 gallons of water would make 190,000 cell phones. How is this pushing the environment greener?

Where does that water go? It goes back into the environment. Not like it disappears. Water is the ultimate renewable resource as long as it isn’t poisoned or pumped thousands of feet underground as part of a fracking process .

 

[LCH21]

Does anyone have an insight on hydrogen engines? I know Toyota is pioneering that tech with the Mirai. It sounds like a promising alternative to full on BEV.

On an unrelated note I just want to say as a car enthusiast and motorsport fan I admit the idea of no longer having the ICE does make me sad.

The Toyota Mirai is actually a practical car. The problem is the hydrogen fueling stations are very few and far between. Current version has about a 400 mile range. Only 182 HP so it is not that quick. BMW is also working on one but I know little about it. The guy on Engineering Explained is not impressed.

If we could get direct hydrogen burning ICE or hydrogen fuel-cell as is the Mirai, problem solved. Only issue with direct burning hydrogen ICE is the NOx emissions. That is what we get living in an atmosphere composed of 78% nitrogen.

 

[Tex68w]

GM has a Hydrogen fueled system as well, I saw it in person when I was still in. There was also a TFL video about the system in a Colorado too I believe.

 

[Spock Dingledong]

I toy with getting a used Mirai every time I see one come up (I can buy peoples trade in's) but then I remember there is only one place to fuel it in my state. Very cool tech, hyundia is also making some sweet looking ones. We just need the infrastructure for it.

 

[LCH21]

I toy with getting a used Mirai every time I see one come up (I can buy peoples trade in's) but then I remember there is only one place to fuel it in my state. Very cool tech, hyundia is also making some sweet looking ones. We just need the infrastructure for it.
View attachment 3215019

That's neat.

If the infrastructure was there, I would also seriously consider getting one. I wish it were 4WD for where I live. Good news is, the infrastructure will increase as will the technology. As long as Toyota and other companies make them, they will only get better.

Still, the sound of a BMW I4, Porsche flat six, a well built American V8 or a Ferrari V12, music to my ears. The dull hum of an electric motor just doesn't cut it.

 

[tbisaacs]

Hydrogen will be the betamax or the Microsoft Zune of alternatives to petrol/diesel. Superior in some ways but too late to market for mass consumer adoption. The lag in infrastructure alone puts it at huge disadvantage - thousands of EV chargers a month are being built right now.

 

[TeCKis300]

The Toyota Mirai is actually a practical car. The problem is the hydrogen fueling stations are very few and far between. Current version has about a 400 mile range. Only 182 HP so it is not that quick. BMW is also working on one but I know little about it. The guy on Engineering Explained is not impressed.

If we could get direct hydrogen burning ICE or hydrogen fuel-cell as is the Mirai, problem solved. Only issue with direct burning hydrogen ICE is the NOx emissions. That is what we get living in an atmosphere composed of 78% nitrogen.

Hydrogen is dead. At least on a passenger car. It's got all the weaknesses of both ICE and EVs without benefits of either. What most people don't understand is that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (aka FCV, aka FCEV) are fundamentally an electric vehicle. With a hydrogen fuel cell generating electricity instead of direct electrons from a battery.

FCVs cons
- Can't charge at home!
- Rely on a public fueling infrastructure that doesn't exist!!
- Complex fueling mechanism to handle 70 MPa (700 atmospheres) - Let the public handle 10,000++ PSI!!!
- Complex fuel transportation and pressurization requirements and infrastructure at fueling facilities
- Fuel cell has limited instantaneous power generation (no insane Plaid or even just high power like we're expecting from EVs)
- Fuel cell cannot natively regen brake like we expect from EVs without additional aux battery or temp power storage
- Complexity of an ICE car
- Minimal development investment compared to ICE or EVs

In a time where we are culling expansion of energy infrastructures like natural gas, there's no appetite to grow another form of energy infrastructure.

EV critics are too busy explaining how EV charging infrastructure doesn't exist when it's leveraging one of the most widely developed infrastructures already in place. Which is why we can charge at home. There's bandwidth of that infrastructure outside of peak. And sure, it'll need more development and bolstering but most importantly, it's a network that's largely already there. EV cars themselves will become a resource that bolsters the electrical infrastructure and emergency charging needs when they can push energy back to the grid, or transfer energy to another EV.

 

[LCH21]

Hydrogen is dead. At least on a passenger car. It's got all the weaknesses of both ICE and EVs without benefits of either. What most people don't understand is that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (aka FCV, aka FCEV) are fundamentally an electric vehicle. With a hydrogen fuel cell generating electricity instead of direct electrons from a battery.

FCVs cons
- Can't charge at home!
- Rely on a public fueling infrastructure that doesn't exist!!
- Complex fueling mechanism to handle 70 MPa (700 atmospheres) - Let the public handle 10,000++ PSI!!!
- Complex fuel transportation and pressurization requirements and infrastructure at fueling facilities
- Fuel cell has limited instantaneous power generation (no insane Plaid or even just high power like we're expecting from EVs)
- Fuel cell cannot natively regen brake like we expect from EVs without additional aux battery or temp power storage
- Complexity of an ICE car
- Minimal development investment compared to ICE or EVs

In a time where we are culling expansion of energy infrastructures like natural gas, there's no appetite to grow another form of energy infrastructure.

EV critics are too busy explaining how EV charging infrastructure doesn't exist when it's leveraging one of the most widely developed infrastructures already in place. Which is why we can charge at home. There's bandwidth of that infrastructure outside of peak. And sure, it'll need more development and bolstering but most importantly, it's a network that's largely already there. EV cars themselves will become a resource that bolsters the electrical infrastructure and emergency charging needs when they can push energy back to the grid, or transfer energy to another EV.

Does Charles H. Duell come to mind?

 

[kcjaz]

 

[Artie]

View attachment 3215117

I always find it amusing that only the rich were able to afford cars for the first 10-20 years of their existence while all the regular folks and poors road around on horses but now the only people I know with horses are rich AF.

 

[stonepa]

Actually the used water to produce the batteries is poison, very toxic in fact.

That is for evap pond separation for lithium processing. But in this case the water evaporates back into the environment.

 

[OregonLC]

Hydrogen will be the betamax or the Microsoft Zune of alternatives to petrol/diesel. Superior in some ways but too late to market for mass consumer adoption. The lag in infrastructure alone puts it at huge disadvantage - thousands of EV chargers a month are being built right now.

Ironically, the giant electrical infrastructure required for EVs to become ubiquitous may be the very thing that enables Hydrogen to become relevant. Have enormous power generation? Batteries are really expensive and short on range? I know, let's make some Hydrogen! Perhaps H2 will be Green Car 2.0?

Actually the used water to produce the batteries is poison, very toxic in fact.

Industry is very good at filtering water, if required. Chemical filtration, media filtration, RO filtration... Water isn't poisoned. Water is water. It's what's in it that's poison and it can be removed. Even the really pernicious stuff like HF can be economically removed at scale if needed. Settling ponds are just the cheap way out. The economics get disrupted when the foreign competition play by different rules.

 

[manofthewoods]

Recardo.

Da plane, da plane

 

[TWILLY]

Not arguing that but look at the actual destruction ev batteries create. I’m sorry but EV’s are absolutely wrecking the environment. Environmental groups are finally waking up and exposing what’s really going on. Obviously gas/oil is part of the problem but it doesn’t mean we should double down and kill off water supply and damage the air much more rapidly.

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right

www.wired.co.uk