Can we stop spelling it lath? It's lathe
Brake rotors, machining / turning (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter 2001LC
- Start date
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Eyedaho
SILVER Star
Someone sounds plastered.
Until the rotor is removed and then if reoriented....you start all over again. Same thing with a new rotor if the hub is not true. Eventually....better to find the root cause, though not the least expensive fix.
Come on guys....we know what he is referring to.
Eyedaho
SILVER Star
It's an illness. I just can't resist dad jokes.
- Thread starter
- #26
You know me!
All rotors cleaned & de-rusted before turning. Rear axle hubs cleaned and de-rusted. Rear axle hub run-out, which came in near dead on (less than 0.01mm). Front wheel bearing service just done, tires not even on yet.
Sure, but even OEM need running out. Which is PITA with front especially. Removing wheel hub and rotor form it five times and resetting is hours of work. But who actually does that right. Me, if not near dead on. It also increases brake job cost by more than $300.
Yes, ran rear hub axle run-out.
Yes front where done with rotor on wheel hubs. They used cones in each race, a small and a large.
The front rotors where beat. But I recondition and flat flied to get true. But this effect hub flange mounting and wheel mount. The hubs mounting point for rotor seem okay, and I did re-torque on to hubs.
Sure! Now do you have any useful info, to add. Or just Nuking.
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My honest opinion? You're overthinking it and I doubt your observations will have a noticeable impact
- Thread starter
- #28
I wanted to follow-up, now I've a little more time this morning.
@white_lx
The pattern on the rotors after turning, was not multiple highs and lows. It starts at out zero point spanning first ~20 degrees of surface. As to turn rotor 360 degrees run-out dial gauge increases steadily to a max high point 180 degrees from zero (not wavy). Than as I continue to rotate 360 degrees the remaining 180 degree, from high point, back to zero (low point). Reading drops evenly, nearly the same as they went up the first 180 degrees. I see the same pattern on both rears rotors, near identical. Same for the front but not as much run-out (0,00mm). But All out of spec.
I did check the wheel hub of the one RH rear wheel, I spent the most time on. I made very sure all surface clean and shinny to bare metal (rotor, before having machined). The axle hub ran very true, at less than 0,01mm run-out. I also checked axle bearing for play, in and out and up and down. No play whatsoever observed on dial gauge or felt.
I turned the RH rear rotor to the 5 possible position on axle hub, testing run-out at each position. The high to low of rotor disk, did not change as to location on rotor (zero still zero and high still high). But the amount of run-out did change a little. I than set rotor at lowest run-out position. Which was still out of spec, just not as bad. With the LH rear I change position once, to ~140 degrees from starting point. I saw some improvement and left it there. But it too is out of spec.
Fronts I never moved rotor to the 5 different position on wheel bearing hub. Would have been waste of time and PITA, as seems it would not get me within spec anyway. But perhaps I should have. Front are such a bear to move/set at best position for lowest run-out. I'm mean, who here, really pulls the wheel bearing hub and removes rotor from it, 5 times to set at best. Since Midas did replace rotor on fronts. Likely they did not clean matting surface. But still since rotor turned mounted to wheel hub, variance in run-out should have been removed by lathe.
I've come to conclusion. This was issue with brake lathe. Be it, operator or equipment IDK!
I've looked the run-out readings and pattern I got, reading the posts from "most" of you here in this thread, were very helpful! Thanks guys! Watching video's on how to set up brake lathe and reading brake lathe manual. The lathe should have remove variation form rotor's mounting surface to disk. For each rear to be off near same amount same pattern, and each front same but just lees run-out than rear. The rotors mounting surface adapters in relation lath axis, must have been off center. We'll see what report I get back for shop, after lathe manufactures rep comes out and does his thing.
Meantime @hoser PM me a link to new Ammco OTV (on the vehicle) brake lathe, that listed new for !$15K 15 or 20 years ago. This one is New, as in not used, but seem it's an old discontinued model. I bought it and waiting for it to arrive. I'll have and issue with working with vehicle on jack stands. As I can only get 100 series axle 24" off the floor. Laths needs 32" or more ground clearance.
Should be fun:
Make room in shop for lathe, which I've non to spare.
Pick up (200lb pallet) from shipping company, and bring home.
Design a way to move and set-up, to a lower ground clearance.
Learn how to operate.
I should have done more DD on Ammco 800 and why it was discontinue. But just jumped and bought it, first thing yesterday morning. A bit of impulse buy! Should be here by this weekend.
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I wanted to follow-up, now I've a little more time this morning.
@white_lx
The pattern on the rotors after turning, was not multiple highs and lows. It starts at out zero point spanning first ~20 degrees of surface. As to turn rotor 360 degrees run-out dial gauge increases steadily to a max high point 180 degrees from zero (not wavy). Than as I continue to rotate 360 degrees the remaining 180 degree, from high point, back to zero (low point). Reading drops evenly, nearly the same as they went up the first 180 degrees. I see the same pattern on both rears rotors, near identical. Same for the front but not as much run-out (0,00mm). But All out of spec.
I did check the wheel hub of the one RH rear wheel, I spent the most time on. I made very sure all surface clean and shinny to bare metal (rotor, before having machined). The axle hub ran very true, at less than 0,01mm run-out. I also checked axle bearing for play, in and out and up and down. No play whatsoever observed on dial gauge or felt.
I turned the RH rear rotor to the 5 possible position on axle hub, testing run-out at each position. The high to low of rotor disk, did not change as to location on rotor (zero still zero and high still high). But the amount of run-out did change a little. I than set rotor at lowest run-out position. Which was still out of spec, just not as bad. With the LH rear I change position once, to ~140 degrees from starting point. I saw some improvement and left it there. But it too is out of spec.
Fronts I never moved rotor to the 5 different position on wheel bearing hub. Would have been waste of time and PITA, as seems it would not get me within spec anyway. But perhaps I should have. Front are such a bear to move/set at best position for lowest run-out. I'm mean, who here, really pulls the wheel bearing hub and removes rotor from it, 5 times to set at best. Since Midas did replace rotor on fronts. Likely they did not clean matting surface. But still since rotor turned mounted to wheel hub, variance in run-out should have been removed by lathe.
I've come to conclusion. This was issue with brake lathe. Be it, operator or equipment IDK!
I've looked the run-out readings and pattern I got, reading the posts from "most" of you here in this thread, were very helpful! Thanks guys! Watching video's on how to set up brake lathe and reading brake lathe manual. The lathe should have remove variation form rotor's mounting surface to disk. For each rear to be off near same amount same pattern, and each front same but just lees run-out than rear. The rotors mounting surface adapters in relation lath axis, must have been off center. We'll see what report I get back for shop, after lathe manufactures rep comes out and does his thing.
Meantime @hoser PM me a link to new Ammco OTV (on the vehicle) brake lathe, that listed new for !$15K 15 or 20 years ago. This one is New, as in not used, but seem it's an old discontinued model. I bought it and waiting for it to arrive. I'll have and issue with working with vehicle on jack stands. As I can only get 100 series axle 24" off the floor. Laths needs 32" or more ground clearance.
Should be fun:
Make room in shop for lathe, which I've non to spare.
Pick up (200lb pallet) from shipping company, and bring home.
Design a way to move and set-up, to a lower ground clearance.
Learn how to operate.
I should have done more DD on Ammco 800 and why it was discontinue. But just jumped and bought it, first think yesterday morning. A bit of impulse buy! Should be here by this weekend.
You do you, fam
Which dealer is that?
Autonation Gulf freeway or Mike Calvert. Both in Houston.
- Thread starter
- #32
On another 100 series yesterday. I ran out one LH rear OEM rotor. This rotor had been turned some time ago, and was just now being installed w/new Pads. I had turned by a mechanic with a very good lathe. One I trusted and paid the most to have rotors turned, over the last few years. He did a great job, best I've ever seen.
I first ran the LH rear axle hub on it. It was out about 0,04mm. Marked the end of lug studs with readings, and installed rotor a ran out. Run-out of disk was ~0.13mm (0,03 over limit). I took best guess and moved rotor ~140 degrees on axle hub. Disk than, ran-out at ~0,05mm (0,05mm within spec). Also worth nothing it's high to low readings on disk surface changed, as I moved disk on axle hub. @white_lx, this indicates rotor was turned true, and axle hub out variation throws off more as distance from axis moves out, as you stated. It also strength case of these OP 4 rotor, were turned poorly.
I spoke with Ammco rep., who's been with them 10 years. Said Ammco 800 OTV lathe, was before his time. He also said; they've gotten out of brake lathe business. That the cheap cost of rotors, really drop their sells' of brake laths.
The problem is most of these cheap rotors come from China. Me I'm done with China junk.
@Njck22
My cost of Toyota's rotors, is more than your's. I can order online at some of these new Toyota beta test web portals and save a little. But either I pay shipping which kills any savings or drive ~50 miles (more time & vehicle exp). So local my "cost" is ~$400 w/tax, for a set!
I first ran the LH rear axle hub on it. It was out about 0,04mm. Marked the end of lug studs with readings, and installed rotor a ran out. Run-out of disk was ~0.13mm (0,03 over limit). I took best guess and moved rotor ~140 degrees on axle hub. Disk than, ran-out at ~0,05mm (0,05mm within spec). Also worth nothing it's high to low readings on disk surface changed, as I moved disk on axle hub. @white_lx, this indicates rotor was turned true, and axle hub out variation throws off more as distance from axis moves out, as you stated. It also strength case of these OP 4 rotor, were turned poorly.
I spoke with Ammco rep., who's been with them 10 years. Said Ammco 800 OTV lathe, was before his time. He also said; they've gotten out of brake lathe business. That the cheap cost of rotors, really drop their sells' of brake laths.
The problem is most of these cheap rotors come from China. Me I'm done with China junk.
@Njck22
My cost of Toyota's rotors, is more than your's. I can order online at some of these new Toyota beta test web portals and save a little. But either I pay shipping which kills any savings or drive ~50 miles (more time & vehicle exp). So local my "cost" is ~$400 w/tax, for a set!
This is called Full Indicator Movement (FIM):
Full Indicator Movement
GD&T Full Indicator Movement concept is explained in simple terms with diagrams. We would also love to make custom machined parts for you.
www.emachineshop.com
FIM is what the FSM is referring to with their runout limit.... metrology and GD&T is a rabbit hole.
- Thread starter
- #34
THXThis is called Full Indicator Movement (FIM):
Full Indicator Movement
GD&T Full Indicator Movement concept is explained in simple terms with diagrams. We would also love to make custom machined parts for you.www.emachineshop.com
FIM is what the FSM is referring to with their runout limit.... metrology and GD&T is a rabbit hole.
It is a bit of rabbit hole, isn't it! Especially with front hubs.
Interesting FIM info you posted.
I/We don't know what is actually high or low in relation to the axes. I just find low and set as zero on dial gauge. I could set zero at mid way of high to low. Than take a negative and positive number readings. Which may or may not be true to axis. But it's my understanding, Toyota FSM gives as a total positive number, so I set and read that way.
Fronts, we must first make sure spindle and wheel bearings in good condition and wheel bearing tight. Which if hub wasn't pulled, we must look for signs of spindle damage and play in wheel bearings.
So often (9 out of 10) I restore front wheel hubs, that have been beaten on with steel hammer. Most shop don't know or care how to remove a rotor from these hubs, and mess up (wrap) hubs mount surface beating on it. I can take down high spots of wheel hub mounting surface, to give a good mounting plan for wheel. But often I'm left irregular low spot surface spots. Which makes very difficult to get a good reading on run-out dial gauge.
Rears, are bit easier to run out hubs, as those wheel hub are not usually beaten on. Axle bearing does need running out first though. Last I did (post above), it does have mild rear axle bearing play. Which I worked around best I could.
I got my Ammco 800 OTV lathe.
I'm pissed. Guy packed very poorly. Took some damage during shipping, due to lack of any padding between heavy metal components. Seems mostly cosmetic, but will need calibrating I suppose.
But the real pisser is, 2 adapter are missing. One is the one I must have for the 100 series. The Ammco 940897 adapter I must have
Without the 940897 adapter, I can't hook up, to even see if I can work out height issue.
Now I also find the seller, when looking up in manual & chart he had that came with the lathe. As we talked about which adapter I needed for land Cruisers and that he had and gave me picture of. He failed to mention, chart for the rear rotors of 100 series. List rears as N/A for adapter. That I'm pissed at myself for not VETing on my own, and just taking his words on. I'd thing front adapter will work. But again, I need the adapter before I'll know.
I may end up looking for lathe that is still in production, and will go lower.
I just use a on the car lathe. Rotors seem less likely to warp when machined this way. I also avoid buying rotors that are drilled since you aren't supposed to machine drilled rotors.
- Thread starter
- #36
I've always heard, the best is to use an OTV Lathe. In looking at this over last week. OTV is rated best. OTV was developed and a must, for most modern vehicle. At Toyota & Lexus dealership, it is what I've see most used.
They say drilled and slotted can be turned, but only once in their lift span.
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- Thread starter
- #37
Update:
I've now have a basically new working Ammco 800 Deluxe OTV Brake Lathe. Customized to work at jack-stand height. Machining rotor disk, to better than .001". Best of all correct the parallizm to 0, from a whopping .0022" MAX .0008")
Long story:
As time permitted, over last ~16 months, since i purchased this Lathe. I acquired needed parts, customized and restored this Lathe!
I had a number of hurtles to get to this lathe working as I needed it to:
1) Hub adapter that I had to have, was lost in shipping. First contacting Ammco, in my search for the Toyota truck hub adapter. I learned, the last Toyota hub adapter, sold 2 years earlier for $800. After a world-wide search, learning more and more about the industry as I searched. I found, the ProCut's lathe hub adapter worked on the Ammco OTV lathe. Not something that was public knowledge. Just a similarity I noticed in mounting point of cutting heads. I purchase one off ebay., few months after buying the OTV.
2) Second was getting the Ammco OTV lathe, to work at Jack-stand height. I weight a number of option. First was shortening the Ammco's very nice Trolleys, pneumatic shock. But in the end I turned to Pro-Cut again. ProCut has a few Trolley options. One being what they call a Low Boy Trolley. Which is designed to work their ProCut OTV at Jack-stand height. I picked up a used one.
3) I now needed to customize an arm to attach the Ammco OTV lathe to the Low boy trolley. Which I had my local machine shop help me with.
Test run #1. Excited, with Ammco hung on a Pro-Cut Trolley. I was now ready to try my custom OTV brake lathe setup. Hooking it up to a test rear hub, on one of my 100 series. I found the Lathe could not hold a good run-out. It would start out okay, but quickly started jumping around wildly. My first thought was, balance as hung on Trolley was off. That the head was heavy, dropping as I bring up to wheel hub to attach. This would put downward pressure on hub adapter. Seems the shocks in the Trolley were weak. Also I may have center of gravity off, due to my custom arm between trolley and Lathe, out 3/4' more than I had to have it for clearance of draw bar.
4) Installed 3 new shocks, on my Low Boy Trolley. I found Pro-Cut had a shorter main height shock available. Installed that and the 2 tilt shocks. Now the Ammco could be taken up to vehicle even lower and droop (weight on hub adapter for lathe) was reduced.
Test run # 2. Darn still jumping around. This time getting worst the more I ran the lathe. At one point, I noticed oil coming out from under an informational stick on main head body. Oil?. This could be right, and not I realized it's oil filled head.
5) Found service tech info on face book, on how to bleed head. Although I had the parts and operational manuals, that came with the Ammco 800. It was lacking service info. Seems Ammco only gave that info, to their field service tech.
6) Bleed air from head, and setup main adjuster screws to factory preset.
Test run #3. Darn, lathe still jumping around wildly.
7) So I decided to rebuild the run-out head. While doing so I found the reason, IMO, this Ammco sat unused, since the day it was manufactured. Seems during manufacturing, the assembler was drunk, stoned and blind.
Head had aluminium shavings with in it. Which shavings were likely form machining of coupling head. Which is main oil filled aluminium body of head assembly. Which shavings crossed over one of the main adjusters screws O-rings (2). This would cause a leak/pressure drop in head, at one of 3 run-out piston. So each time run-out set, it could not hold pressure at one piston.
In restoring head. I was able to find and replace ~20 of ~23 O-rings from hardware stores. After which my contact was able to give a parts list form head, which I'll be rebuilding again with manufacture specific O-rings and seals. Which I now know I missed two import fine adjuster steam O-rings. During assembly, I use a little AT-205 with oil.
In cleaning and restore the head assembly. I also found 6 set screws loose, 3 in each of 2 bearing retainer plates. Unsure if they were loose be design, or another assembler mishap. I turning back to my contact made through FB. I was able to get actual design diagrams, instructing to tighten.
8) Now I also had factory preset run-out head procedure. I was able to dial-in head to .000 run-out. Needle of dail gauge was pegged, only wiggly the tiniest bit.
Test run #4. Hooked-up hub adapter to vehicle for final find tune of run-out before cut. I got less than .004" run-out, which manual stated ".004" or better is goal". As I'd begin cutting disk, run-out would jump to ~.008" Darn!. Final cut run-out of brake disk was .004". Which is within spec range, but not good enough for me. Goal is .002" or less, which is best practice.
So why now was the cut, not within best practice target .002" and why was run-out changing once cutting begun.
First though was two possible issues:
A) Still to much weight on head. Meaning need head to float into hub adapter, without any weight pulling in down. I was able to float head, with bungee cord. Also tried different draw bar tensions. No change wheresoever!
B) Head not holding pressure. This is when I was able to get my hand on manufacture spec for each O-ring. But two weeks later, before getting new O-rings. I tested again
Test run #5: Sweet! Finally a working OTV cutting to less the .001". It seems the AT-205, did the trick after some time past. Run-out was now holding at ~.002, while OTV lathe cutting.
Long road.
I've now have a basically new working Ammco 800 Deluxe OTV Brake Lathe. Customized to work at jack-stand height. Machining rotor disk, to better than .001". Best of all correct the parallizm to 0, from a whopping .0022" MAX .0008")
Long story:
As time permitted, over last ~16 months, since i purchased this Lathe. I acquired needed parts, customized and restored this Lathe!
I had a number of hurtles to get to this lathe working as I needed it to:
1) Hub adapter that I had to have, was lost in shipping. First contacting Ammco, in my search for the Toyota truck hub adapter. I learned, the last Toyota hub adapter, sold 2 years earlier for $800. After a world-wide search, learning more and more about the industry as I searched. I found, the ProCut's lathe hub adapter worked on the Ammco OTV lathe. Not something that was public knowledge. Just a similarity I noticed in mounting point of cutting heads. I purchase one off ebay., few months after buying the OTV.
2) Second was getting the Ammco OTV lathe, to work at Jack-stand height. I weight a number of option. First was shortening the Ammco's very nice Trolleys, pneumatic shock. But in the end I turned to Pro-Cut again. ProCut has a few Trolley options. One being what they call a Low Boy Trolley. Which is designed to work their ProCut OTV at Jack-stand height. I picked up a used one.
3) I now needed to customize an arm to attach the Ammco OTV lathe to the Low boy trolley. Which I had my local machine shop help me with.
Test run #1. Excited, with Ammco hung on a Pro-Cut Trolley. I was now ready to try my custom OTV brake lathe setup. Hooking it up to a test rear hub, on one of my 100 series. I found the Lathe could not hold a good run-out. It would start out okay, but quickly started jumping around wildly. My first thought was, balance as hung on Trolley was off. That the head was heavy, dropping as I bring up to wheel hub to attach. This would put downward pressure on hub adapter. Seems the shocks in the Trolley were weak. Also I may have center of gravity off, due to my custom arm between trolley and Lathe, out 3/4' more than I had to have it for clearance of draw bar.
4) Installed 3 new shocks, on my Low Boy Trolley. I found Pro-Cut had a shorter main height shock available. Installed that and the 2 tilt shocks. Now the Ammco could be taken up to vehicle even lower and droop (weight on hub adapter for lathe) was reduced.
Test run # 2. Darn still jumping around. This time getting worst the more I ran the lathe. At one point, I noticed oil coming out from under an informational stick on main head body. Oil?. This could be right, and not I realized it's oil filled head.
5) Found service tech info on face book, on how to bleed head. Although I had the parts and operational manuals, that came with the Ammco 800. It was lacking service info. Seems Ammco only gave that info, to their field service tech.
6) Bleed air from head, and setup main adjuster screws to factory preset.
Test run #3. Darn, lathe still jumping around wildly.
7) So I decided to rebuild the run-out head. While doing so I found the reason, IMO, this Ammco sat unused, since the day it was manufactured. Seems during manufacturing, the assembler was drunk, stoned and blind.
Head had aluminium shavings with in it. Which shavings were likely form machining of coupling head. Which is main oil filled aluminium body of head assembly. Which shavings crossed over one of the main adjusters screws O-rings (2). This would cause a leak/pressure drop in head, at one of 3 run-out piston. So each time run-out set, it could not hold pressure at one piston.
In restoring head. I was able to find and replace ~20 of ~23 O-rings from hardware stores. After which my contact was able to give a parts list form head, which I'll be rebuilding again with manufacture specific O-rings and seals. Which I now know I missed two import fine adjuster steam O-rings. During assembly, I use a little AT-205 with oil.
In cleaning and restore the head assembly. I also found 6 set screws loose, 3 in each of 2 bearing retainer plates. Unsure if they were loose be design, or another assembler mishap. I turning back to my contact made through FB. I was able to get actual design diagrams, instructing to tighten.
8) Now I also had factory preset run-out head procedure. I was able to dial-in head to .000 run-out. Needle of dail gauge was pegged, only wiggly the tiniest bit.
Test run #4. Hooked-up hub adapter to vehicle for final find tune of run-out before cut. I got less than .004" run-out, which manual stated ".004" or better is goal". As I'd begin cutting disk, run-out would jump to ~.008" Darn!. Final cut run-out of brake disk was .004". Which is within spec range, but not good enough for me. Goal is .002" or less, which is best practice.
So why now was the cut, not within best practice target .002" and why was run-out changing once cutting begun.
First though was two possible issues:
A) Still to much weight on head. Meaning need head to float into hub adapter, without any weight pulling in down. I was able to float head, with bungee cord. Also tried different draw bar tensions. No change wheresoever!
B) Head not holding pressure. This is when I was able to get my hand on manufacture spec for each O-ring. But two weeks later, before getting new O-rings. I tested again
Test run #5: Sweet! Finally a working OTV cutting to less the .001". It seems the AT-205, did the trick after some time past. Run-out was now holding at ~.002, while OTV lathe cutting.
Long road.
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Still waiting to see total indicator run out for out of the box, factory rotors and a used set of rotors before you turn them....
I am still not convinced that turning is ever necessary based on "warpage"... never seen anyone document warpage other than how the breaking "feels"
I am still not convinced that turning is ever necessary based on "warpage"... never seen anyone document warpage other than how the breaking "feels"
- Thread starter
- #39
First "warpage" is a generic term. It's just referring to variation in thickness of surface(s) of disk.
With used rotors. I do get complaints of brake pedal, steering wheel and vehicle pulse while braking.
I also have had complaints on new after market rotors. Which in a previous post #17 . I showed video and talked about how grinding OTV (using OTV brake lathe) cured, pedal & steering wheel pulse. Which was due to, run-out greater than limit on after market rotors.
Which Toyota states: Eliminating run-out is only way to solve pedal pulsation for good.
With new OEM rotors disk, in those that I've run-out. Variation in thickness have been within tolerances, but not perfect! Which with rears, I can get improvement by "indexing". Indexing on front is not practical. OTV grinding is best way to improve those.
Toyota basically recommends 3 course of action for rears "index, grind or replace", and 2 for fronts "grind or replace".
In a previous post I mentioned, what I called "T8" .02mm (.008") max. Which is Thickness Variation, between front and back of disk surfaces. This is something I've only checked a few times. I now have 2 dial gauge I set up at same time, to do this.
I still have the 07LX, that prompted me to first start this thread. Pulsation has not been bad. But I use proper braking and down hill speed control. So I do not tend to over-heat my rotor & pads. I also drive, after any time rotors get wet. I now have another vehicle 03LX, that brake pulse shakes the whole vehicle, excessively. Worst I've ever seen. By 3rd lite braking, it starts pulsing the vehicle. I've worked through braking system. Starting with master, which had some very interest issues (first I'd seen). Then I found rear brake calipers on backwards (RH on LH, LH on RH). Interestingly; One of the first thing I noticed in this 03. Was shift gate plastic worn between 2nd & 3rd. More than any I've seen. It's a Colo rig, so I though here's one they knew how to control down hill speed. I now realized they were try to do all they could, to stay off brake pedal. I've been waiting to get my OTV working, for these these two. Should be interesting.
I've attached a PDF taken form Toyota technical hand book, on brakes. In it, you'll see what Toyota list of reason for brake pulse, and what they recommend. You'll also see what I called T8 (Rotor Parallelism) and some interesting things on caliper piston seals, pins, fitting kit.
