Toyota 1HD-FT vs 1HD-FTE (1 Viewer)

[sunrk]

People go on and on about electronically controlled diesel motors being better than non-electronic controlled ones because you can 'tune' them and there are heaps of places that offer computerised 'performance upgrading' combined with fancy exhaust systems. Why?

For example, Toyota 1HD-FT vs 1HD-FTE.

Is the extra claimed power and 'tunability' actually worth it or more wank factor? How far do you want to trade off long-term reliability vs short-term power gains?

Compare against my 80's factory-original 1hz motor that is very close to hitting 690 k km's at 30.5 yrs old that probably runs like s*** compared to when new but has been super-reliable and dependable.

 

[mudgudgeon]

So some searching in this forum.

Why upgrade the power? Why not. You could argue that utilising the engine's inherent potential with an increase in torque and power output means the engine is not labouring as hard as a less tuned and optimised engine.


The HD series of engines were used as marine engines producing 2-3 times the power and torque as the Landcruiser version.
They are proven to be stout enough to upgrade output significantly without impacting longevity.

Compare to your 1HZ? They are structurally the same engine, with different heads, and the associated parts. The HZ is the working class poorer cousin of the family.

The trade off IF you do upgrades right is not power vs longevity, it's power vs $$$$

 

[Silveredition]

In Australia there are a few (lot??) of electronic fte to mechanical conversions… I am unsure if the workshops carrying out these conversions would do so if the benefits weren’t worth it… (I don’t have one)
I have owned a 2h, 1hz (with and without gas injection), 1HD-fte, and my current 12ht in both standard hp and its current fairly well tuned spec. In my opinion the fte has amazing potential - but I had issues with the. Main computer with mine.. my current (all mechanical) 12ht is my favourite out of all of them, and the one I trust the most in going remote…

 

[mudgudgeon]

In Australia there are a few (lot??) of electronic fte to mechanical conversions

Is there?
I've seen it talked about lots on forums, not sure I've seen anyone follow it through.
I don't think there's a direct bolt in solution without changing timing case and gears?

I think cost of parts would mean it doesn't make much sense.

 

[mudgudgeon]

In Australia there are a few (lot??) of electronic fte to mechanical conversions… I am unsure if the workshops carrying out these conversions would do so if the benefits weren’t worth it… (I don’t have one)
I have owned a 2h, 1hz (with and without gas injection), 1HD-fte, and my current 12ht in both standard hp and its current fairly well tuned spec. In my opinion the fte has amazing potential - but I had issues with the. Main computer with mine.. my current (all mechanical) 12ht is my favourite out of all of them, and the one I trust the most in going remote…

One simple thing(among many) that separates 1HZ, 1HD-T, 1HD-FT, 1HD-FTE and highlights the potential for power is fuel injection pressures.

From memory, so don't quote me
1hz injects fuel at 1900ish psi.
1HD-T 2250psi
1HD-FT 2900ish
1HD-FTE roughly double the HD-T (can't remember a number)

Higher injection pressure means better atomization of fuel, a more complete combustion of fuel on every cycle, cleaner exhaust, lower EGTs, higher power output per cc of fuel, less fuel burnt to do the same thing. All that adds up to more blue sky when tuning or modifying for added performance.

Combine that with incremental improvements in head and valve design, changes in piston design and combustion bowl shape, changes in injectors and injector depth, changes in pumps for improved timing advance etc, change to electronic injection control, changes to turbos.

Unless you're in a third world country and routinely have no option but use dirty low grade fuel, there's almost no benefit in a HZ being bullet proof.

1HD-FTE has 20 + years of proven reliability in any conditions you can throw at it in Australia. Reliability really isn't a question.

 

[Silveredition]

1HD-FTE has 20 + years of proven reliability in any conditions you can throw at it in Australia. Reliability really isn't a question.

Boosted Diesel Services in Western Australia has done them… (on Facebook).

I wouldn’t have a clue of injector pressures

In my opinion (and experience), a computer affects reliability… the 1HD-fte has, as you have said 20+ years of proven reliability.. I just think the same engine with mechanical injection is more reliable (and repairable) in remote areas…

 

[Silveredition]

Pretty sure FTM is for FT Mechanical

 

[KiwiDingo]

Yep very common conversion. FTM is a FTE converted to mechanical injector pump, hence the removal of the E.

 

[plink01]

Boosted Diesel Services in Western Australia has done them… (on Facebook).

I wouldn’t have a clue of injector pressures

In my opinion (and experience), a computer affects reliability… the 1HD-fte has, as you have said 20+ years of proven reliability.. I just think the same engine with mechanical injection is more reliable (and repairable) in remote areas…

I always find this train of thought a bit strange. Computers in cars pre 1990 maybe a bit unreliable. But how often are you having computer breakdowns in your 1hdt fte??
These engines arnt new, they have proven themselves over a long period of time in the harshest conditions on earth and I never hear about computer dramas.

I live in Aus, even when your remote are you really that remote?? A computer breakdown is probably something that might happen once every 400,000km. What is the chances that happens when your away camping in an impossible to recover scenario??

Even if it did you can still get it towed. Unless your in Arnham Land in wet season or something crazy. There are workshops all over the country even in stupidly remote areas that can still get parts in in under a week. The motor is new enough that genuine parts are still in stock.

Is it really worth loosing all the benefits of the computer for that 1 in a million chance thr computer breaks down in an impossible spot to which you can't be recovered??
Half the country is driving 79 and 200 series landcruisers and they arnt worried about computers failing.

All this is just my stupid opinion. I have no skin in the game, my old landcruisers have no computers except my work 79 series.
But removing the electronics from a 1hdt fte is probably the last mod on earth I'd ever consider.

 

[SNLC]

It is more than just tuning. The FTE being ECU controlled adjust timing & A/F ratio automatically.

Best example I can give is drive both from sea level to 10,000ft. The FTE will not suffer doing this like a mechanical controlled diesel will.

I like them all but I don’t think there is much argument that the FTE is the best of the best. It simply is.

Cheers

 

[DivByZero]

It all depends on what you value more, power, simplicity, reliability, self-maintenance, etc. Sure, the FTE is the more efficient powerful engine. No question. Doesn't mean it'd be my pick when fording a river, crossing the simpson desert, or exploring off-track in the Kimberly. Not really any difference if it's the kind of vehicle you take to a "commercial" trail head on the occasional weekend, but that's not the experience for all of us. The FTE does open you up to an entire new category of issues. It's still a reliable, solid engine under normal circumstances, but with the all mechanical versions, you have more options for trail repairs and workarounds. You can disconnect your alternator for river crossings. Issues are easier to troubleshoot, and more likely repairable with a hammer and duct tape. There's a reason simplicity is valued over performance in really harsh environments like mines or really remote areas. The less these apply to you, the more appealing the FTE looks, but for myself, if I could only have one, I'd take an all mechanical option.

 

[SNLC]

Well sure, if you are worried about EMPs than go mechanical diesel.

I like them all in the 1HDx variety. So there is that.

I have also driven a boosted 5vz running 16psi of boost all the way down to Panama and back doing 25,000 miles on that trip alone. So many people said don’t do it, the crappy fuel will kill the engine. It was just fine, so much so I did it again with the same engine and another 15,000 mile trip.

I have never really been a person who says, this is easier to fix in the bush or this is more reliable. Instead I keep it in tip top condition and have no issues which is most enjoyable to me. I don’t want to work on anything in the bush, that is relax time for me.

Cheers

 

[mudgudgeon]

The mining industry hasn't stopped using 79 series etc which have all been electrically injected for a long time now

 

[KiwiDingo]

The mining industry hasn't stopped using 79 series etc which have all been electrically injected for a long time now

Weird, most the mines I've worked on had the latest 79 series bodies but all had the 1HZ under the bonnet. Did you look under the bonnet, I think you'll be surprised how many new looking cars actually have the old faithful IDI 1HZ.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Weird, most the mines I've worked on had the latest 79 series bodies but all had the 1HZ under the bonnet. Did you look under the bonnet, I think you'll be surprised how many new looking cars actually have the old faithful IDI 1HZ.

I'll take your word for it.

 

[tetelestia]

Lots of mines don't allow turbocharged engines. I don't know what the reason for that is, but at certain mines, that's the reason for the 1HZ, rather than reliability.

 

[Dougal]

The FT vs FTE has different injection control but also a different turbo. Bolt the FTE turbo (CT20B) onto the FT, tune it correctly and it'll do exactly the same thing.

Before Graeme (Gturbo) came along there wasn't anyone getting serious tuning the electronic engines. That has changed now.

The mining industry hasn't stopped using 79 series etc which have all been electrically injected for a long time now

Lots of mines don't allow turbocharged engines. I don't know what the reason for that is, but at certain mines, that's the reason for the 1HZ, rather than reliability.

Coal mines have strict rules about what is allowed underground for fire/explosion risk. Turbocharged machines do run underground but they're specially designed vs adapted road vehicles.

Hard rock mines (gold etc) don't have the fire/explosion risk and can run anything.

 

[wedgetail]

FTE

Boosted Diesel Services in Western Australia has done them… (on Facebook).

I wouldn’t have a clue of injector pressures

In my opinion (and experience), a computer affects reliability… the 1HD-fte has, as you have said 20+ years of proven reliability.. I just think the same engine with mechanical injection is more reliable (and repairable) in remote areas…

this is arse about - on average, over the long term, the FTE is more reliable. The computers are incredibly reliable - over the life time of the average vehicle they will be 100% fault free (yes there are anomalies). The pump lasts a lot longer on the FTE than any of the Toyota mechanicals, they’re mostly still fine by 800k. I’d go so far as to say the pump on a 1HZ/T/FT will fail LONG before the computer in an FTE. FTEs are incredibly time/extreme conditions proven - I’d definitely take my FTE powered 105 up the Hay River track rather than anything else. Before putting the FTE in 3 years ago I had an FT lined up for a good price, after a lot of deliberation and further research I decided the FTE would be a better, more reliable and effective long term option. 120k km later I am 100% glad I went electronic - my previous experience was all mechanical diesels.

The only time people ever mechanical convert FTEs is when they’re transplanting them into other vehicles and can’t be bothered wiring in the computer- generally because they don’t understand the system.

It’s not just the huge amount more power available, it’s also the fact it burns so incredibly clean - my FTE (CI-4) oil is still honey coloured at 6k old, as are most others - that the bearings last so much longer. Compared to a 1HZ where the oil is jet black after you first run it to check the oil level where the bearings are bathing in their own s*** the whole time

 

[JuanJ]

Well sure, if you are worried about EMPs than go mechanical diesel.

[...]

I have never really been a person who says, this is easier to fix in the bush or this is more reliable. Instead I keep it in tip top condition and have no issues which is most enjoyable to me. I don’t want to work on anything in the bush, that is relax time for me.

Cheers

Hello,

If you have to fix anything in the bush it is because you have not been careful enough about maintenance.

Electronic fuel injection is very reliable. Fewer moving parts, fewer settings to deal with. No need to worry about altitude, for instance.

It is only when the user messes with the ECU and its circuit that problems arise.






Juan

 

[Lo2aY]

Late to the party but I'd like to leave some comments.

The arguments are valid on both sides. I have both engines and I know them very well.

In short, the FTE is the better engine. There is no debate on this. The engine delivers power when you want it. idles better in different altitudes accepts tunes better and is more fuel efficient. Can you make an FT do the above YES but you will have to keep constantly adjusting it to the exact things each at a time.

In my view, the FT shines in the simplicity, ease and cost of maintenance overall. The harness for an FTE is non existent for us LHD folks. You will have to go aftermarket to get a harness and those typically don't fair well over the years. Another down side are the electronics on the FTE and although I do think Toyota has done a great job with their electronics and I still think they will last at least 20+ years if maintained properly. They are still 20+ years old. Can you get new ECU and spill valve? yes. But they are very very expensive. The pump/injector repair is also expensive compared to an FT.

Parts and service availability for the FTE is also not globally available as is the FT which is similar service to a 1HZ.

It's really a good problem to have in choosing between these two great engines. I wouldn't hesitate picking either one if you are in the market.

I like the raw mechanical aspect and feel of the FT in my 60. It really feels alive. I love that when I cold start it in the mountains south of Saudi, it makes different sounds and has a rough idle at start due to altitude. You are more involved with the FT as there are no engine lights or anything electronically to tell you if there are any issues.

Either way, you will have fun with either engine.