Building a new house and shop (1 Viewer)

[1911]

Looks good. One thing I'd add (and those with more experience can weigh in) is that having seen hundreds of connections, over time I've seen those "bolt" connections to the ground rod loosen up or become corroded every so often. Granted most don't have any problems, but when there is an issue it can be troublesome to track down, cause issues, and potentially damage things.

On my home and shop, I used these: nVent ERICO Cadweld One Shot - https://www.nvent.com/en-us/erico/products/nvent-erico-cadweld-one-shot

You can get permanent molds if you're doing a lot of them, but the disposable "one shot" is great if you're just needing a few connections.

It permanently welds the cable and ground rod together.

Thanks; I had no idea anything like that existed.

 

[PAToyota]

I find a lot of electricians don't even know about them. I "discovered" them on a commercial project where they were doing everything they could for "clean" power. Compared to the little screw-on connector they're expensive, but compared to ground issues affecting electronics - or the overall cost of your electrical installation - they're cheap.

From that same project I also recommend whole building surge protection such as these units by SquareD: Section 6: Surge Protective Devices (SPDs) and Easy UPS 3S - Digest 178 - https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/nadigest/5c51d645347bdf0001f1f280/Master/17706_MAIN%20(bookmap)_0000059343.xml/

The simplest option would be these panel mount versions: QO™, NQ, and Homeline™ Load Center Surge Protective Devices - Schneider Electric Digest Plus - https://www.productinfo.schneider-electric.com/nadigest/5c51d645347bdf0001f1f280/Master/17706_MAIN%20(bookmap)_0000059343.xml/$/QOTMNQAndHomelineTMSPDs-1952FD02

You can also look at the externally and internally mounted options if your needs are greater. I still have surge protection or UPS units at electronics such as TVs, computers, and such, but protection at the panel provides a first line of defense.

Just from anecdotal evidence, I know a number of people on my street complain about storms taking out electronics in their homes - or complain that appliances don't last. In twenty years since installing surge devices at the panels (house and shop) the only item that has "burned out" for me was a microwave.

 

[rkymtnflyfisher]

I find a lot of electricians don't even know about them. I "discovered" them on a commercial project where they were doing everything they could for "clean" power. Compared to the little screw-on connector they're expensive, but compared to ground issues affecting electronics - or the overall cost of your electrical installation - they're cheap.

The only side of the trade that really uses ground rods as an electrode is the resi side, the commercial and industrial side of thing use ufer grounds now, concrete encased electrodes..all connections are usually cad welded together as you noted above.

A far superior ground system compared to a simple rod.

Ground rods are used for temp services on construction sites.

 

[PAToyota]

Yes, they were using the cadweld style connections on a concrete-encased grounding electrode.

 

[1911]

Garage doors have been made and would have been installed this past week, but I was out canoeing on the Buffalo River in Arkansas; just got back yesterday. Garage door guy promised they'll be in by the end of this coming week, so we'll see.

 

[tampacruiser95]

Continuing to do smaller projects on the land, while waiting for the windows and (thankfully) getting some consulting work again.

Mrs. 1911 found some super heavy-duty picnic tables on Facebook Marketplace, from a water park about 30 miles away that had closed - the land is worth way more than the business. So we were able to buy two 8' vinyl-coated expanded steel picnic tables for 15 cents on the dollar compared to new. They are in super good shape, and heavy. I put them down by the "party oak", near the creek and not far from the big waterfall. I had envisioned putting a picnic table there ever since I first found it. When we went to buy them and pick them up, I noticed two big steel charcoal grills with adjustable grates, like you see in state and national parks, cemented in the ground. So I asked the table guy, would you sell me one of those? He says, if I can get them out of the ground I can have them all three that he has! So I whip out my winch bag, throw a tree-saver strap around each grill, hook up the winch line, and out they come, in no time at all. I don't think the guy had ever seen a winch in action, or thought that I could even get them out of the ground. It took the two of us to heave the things on the trailer; the deadlifts I do every other week finally paid off.

I get them home and two or three good whacks with the sledgehammer on each one and the cement just falls off clean. That makes them light(er) enough that I can lift them by myself. Hauled them down to the party oak, dug two holes by hand with a post hole digger, hauled a wheelbarrow, shovel, 4 sacks of cement, and 25 gallons of water with the 4-wheeler and trailer, and by dusk I had two of them cemented in the ground and leveled. Still have the third one to put somewhere else.

Here are some fairly poor photos, taken late this afternoon on an overcast, drizzly day, just after I finished cementing:

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This is an awesome project all the way around!

 

[thatcabledude]

Looks good. One thing I'd add (and those with more experience can weigh in) is that having seen hundreds of connections, over time I've seen those "bolt" connections to the ground rod loosen up or become corroded every so often. Granted most don't have any problems, but when there is an issue it can be troublesome to track down, cause issues, and potentially damage things.

On my home and shop, I used these: nVent ERICO Cadweld One Shot - https://www.nvent.com/en-us/erico/products/nvent-erico-cadweld-one-shot

You can get permanent molds if you're doing a lot of them, but the disposable "one shot" is great if you're just needing a few connections.

It permanently welds the cable and ground rod together.

Something like this?

That was done in ‘96

 

[1911]

Quick update:

Still waiting on garage doors: we were out of town when the guy wanted to install them, and now his entire crew has Covid. We are supposed to be at the top of the list when the crew can return to work.

The crew from the electric co-op that actually sets meters was out near my place, so I got them to come down and inspect my meter base and disconnect setup - they said it looked good (they actually told me it looked better than many electricians work they see), and that connecting the neutral busses together with the ground wire was good because the two enclosures are connected with flexible (non-conducting) conduit. So it is ready to have a meter set any time I want. I'll wait until I'm closer to running wire to the house to have it set, just to not pay the monthly meter charge if I'm not using it.

I went ahead and ordered the Starlink "RV" package and service, after finding out that it's the exact same hardware as the "home" installation that I'm still on a waiting list for after two years. They don't guarantee any specific speed, but everything I've heard and read from people who actually have it (including the father-in-law of my son in southern Utah) says the minimum speed is more than 10x what we're getting from HughesNet now. It's scheduled to arrive tomorrow. Pretty excited at the prospect of having real internet with no data caps for the first time since 2003, and being able to stream movies and etc. It will be satisfying to kick HughesNet to the curb, and most likely Dish Network also.

Ending on another happy note; a photo of our newest grandchild (#8) and our third granddaughter, that we visited and saw for the first time over 4th of July weekend:

 

[firestopper]

Congratulations on the newest family addition.

 

[1911]

Congratulations on the newest family addition.

Thanks Paco!

 

[PAToyota]

The crew from the electric co-op that actually sets meters was out near my place, so I got them to come down and inspect my meter base and disconnect setup - they said it looked good (they actually told me it looked better than many electricians work they see),

That's actually often the case. An owner with a good understanding or good instructions is going to take their time, do things right, and do things neatly because they'll have to live with it - compared to "pros" just trying to get the job done so they can get to the next one.

 

[1911]

Slow progress; I'm trying to do a little bit each day. Still waiting on the garage doors installation; the guy is having trouble keeping employees between Covid and the general building boom.

Today I bought $1,300 worth of 4/0 URD cable, #6 copper THHN, and Schedule 40 and 80 conduit to bury it in. As soon as the garage doors are in I will rent a trencher and run the URD cable and the #6 copper from the 200-amp disconnect into the house for the main service panel.

I did redo the grounding in the meter base to resolve the parallel grounding path you guys mentioned. I disconnected to ground path from the meter base neutral buss, and connected it instead to a bonded bushing, so that the enclosure is grounded, since the flexible conduit connecting the meter base to the OCPD enclosure is non-conducting. Here's what it looks like now:

 

[1911]

Almost done with exterior trim around the windows. This will allow the windows to be repaired or replaced in the future (if ever needed) without cutting/destroying the eventual stone façade to do it. The wood is just primed for now; will eventually be painted some color close or complimentary to the window frame and/or stone color. Not perfect, but I'm happy enough for my first real attempt at carpentry. This is my office window on the south side of the house.

Still no garage doors installed.

After research, I've sorted out what I need for the propane line from the 500-gal. tank to the house. In less than two weeks, I'll rent a Ditch Witch trencher and lay 2" Schedule 40 conduit for the URD power cables and the propane line, and direct-bury the PEX main water line to the well. I've been putting that off, waiting for the garage door guy so that any open trenches would not be in his way (all three of the above trenches will go under the eventual driveway and will be in front of the garage doors), but I'm tired of waiting so just going to do it on my schedule. I have enough consulting work now that I have to block out a day to do the trenching ahead of time. What I've been doing for the last little while is getting up early and doing paid work (consulting) for an hour or two, then at sunup I'll go work on the house for a couple of hours, then come back in, clean up, and go back to consulting work. The Mrs. is helping by painting primer on all the trim pieces after I cut them to length.

Also looking for a decent paint sprayer, electric or compressed air, possibly with the ability to blow mud for texture as well, if anyone has any recommendations.

 

[Michael B]

Opening those trenches should get those garage doors delivered soon

 

[1911]

Opening those trenches should get those garage doors delivered soon

That's what I'm afraid of! Oh well, if it happens, it happens. Tired of holding off for the doors and then they never come.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Easy enough to drive over a 6" trench with a piece or two of lumber.

 

[PIP]

When I was 18-19 fresh out of high school I was a garage door installer. Countless times I had to park long distances from the garage and huff the doors over trenches and such. It was just part of the job. Cordless tools weren't good enough back then so we did require power on the jobsite for the install. Even if I had to run it from the temp box at the street. I remember installing doors in a snow storm where I had to carry the doors from the road and couldn't tell where a safe pathway was to even get to the garage with all the typical framing debri scattered about under the snow.

Garage doors are straightforward to install. The two big problems I ran into were inexperienced builders that didn't relieve the foundation concrete for the garage door track and houses designed with living areas above the garage that supported the second story with a large glulam or I-beam through the middle of the garage. One new house the builder had to break up the new concrete floor and lower it 18" just to install a 7' tall door in the garage. I had a heavy mini sledge hammer and a large chisel I'd use to break the concrete out for track clearance if the builder wanted me to. There was one job where the concrete mix must have been real bad because my first good hit pushed a 2' section of the foundation right out the front of the house. lol

Go grab them doors and put them in yourself. probably a 2 hour job if it's your first time.

 

[1911]

Go grab them doors and put them in yourself. probably a 2 hour job if it's your first time.

I've definitely considered that; not sure if the garage door guy would give them to me but it might be worth a try. I've installed openers before several times (I've paid for openers for all three doors too).

 

[1911]

More questions for the electricians; @PIP @mdsims @Ol Yeller @PAToyota etc.

Is a plug-on neutral main panel and breakers worth getting? The marketing makes them sound like a good idea, but are there any downsides? Are they as secure as a conventional wired-in neutral?

Also, there is a bewildering array of breakers! Arc fault, ground fault, dual function. I guess if I used ground fault breakers for kitchen and bathroom, then I wouldn't have to use GFCI outlets in those places? But then it would be more of a pain to reset them. The arc fault breakers sound like a good idea; any downsides? Worth the extra money? Would you guys use any of these in your house?

Thanks for your experience and wisdom.

 

[PAToyota]

The plug-on neutral panels are a relatively new thing. To me, the main advantage is that it is a quicker, more straightforward install in that you don't have to separately run the pigtails for any GFCI and AFCI breakers in the panel.

I'd be inclined to say that they're going to perform as well as a conventional breaker. The conventional breaker "plugs on" to the hot bus and the plug-on neutral just adds a "plug on" to the neutral bus as well instead of requiring you to connect the pigtail to the neutral bus separately (screwing the pigtail to the neutral bus).

The main thing is that with today's code requirements for GFCI and AFCI protection, you're connecting more GFCI and/or AFCI breakers to the neutral bus. My house and workshop don't have any AFCI protection because they predate the code requirements for AFCI. I've been here for 30 years and the house has been here since about 1925 without issues, so I haven't gone to the trouble to update to AFCI protection. I have put in GFCI protection where needed by code (at the time) in the workshop and updated the house with GFCI to bath, kitchen, and exterior.

Here's my workshop panel and you can see four GFCI breakers in the center left of the panel with their pigtails. Those are for 15A circuits on the ground floor and at the time GFCI was only required for "readily accessible" receptacles in a garage where the floor was at or below grade. Since the 2008 NEC, ALL garage 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-amp receptacles where the floor is at or below grade are required to be GFCI protected.

This is a SquareD QO panel - I find them to be more robust and have more room than the Homeline version:

There is an argument that you can just put a GFCI receptacle as the first one in a circuit and all receptacles downstream from it are also protected and there is no need to use GFCI breakers, which saves you the cost of a GFCI breaker (GFCI receptacle = about $20; GFCI breaker = about $45). I chose to use GFCI breakers in my workshop because then everything was centrally located instead of having to remember where the GFCI receptacles are located throughout the shop - or that the receptacle ends up being behind something that has to be moved when it is tripped. Also, the QO panel has indicators that show when a breaker is tripped - so it is really easy to see which one needs attention. This means I can send someone else to the panel and they can easily find the tripped breaker too.

The red indicator shows up in the little window when it is tripped:

But for residential, it makes more sense to have a GFCI receptacle in the kitchen and the bath where it will save a trip to the breaker panel to reset a GFCI breaker.

As for what type of breakers you need and where you need them, much of it depends on the codes adopted by your State and local municipality. Looking at things, although Texas adopted the 2020 NEC effective as of 11/1/2020, the Texas Occupations Code § 1305.201 provides municipalities the authority to make local amendments to the NEC. So you'd have to check to see what is required locally for you. You'll need the proper GFCI and AFCI circuits as required by your local code to pass your electrical inspection. As for downsides, I'll address those independently.

GFCI's make sense in wet (or potentially wet) locations. They've been required on exterior receptacles, bathrooms, and garages (for garages - readily accessible receptacles with some exceptions) since the 1970s. The 1980s added kitchens (within six feet of a sink) and unfinished basements to the list. The 1990s added crawlspaces and wet bars. The 2000s added all kitchen countertop receptacles, the service to a dishwasher, and laundries as well as pretty much eliminating any exceptions for garages - including ceiling receptacles and those for garage door openers. There are a bunch of other specific requirements for swimming pools, hot tubs, boathouses, and other "wet" areas, but that is another discussion.

The one downside for me is the requirement for ALL receptacles in basements and garages to be GFCI when you have something like a chest freezer or refrigerator there. Only countertop receptacles are required to be GFCI, so the kitchen refrigerator isn't required to be on a GFCI. If it trips and you don't notice it, you can end up losing $$$ in groceries. Other than that, a tripped GFCI is mostly just a nuisance but could similarly be an issue for anything you depend on to have constant power - security systems or a sump pump, for example - that may be in a "wet" location like an unfinished basement or garage. If an item is hard wired it doesn't need to be GFCI protected, which is the easy way to get around GFCI protection for a sump pump and still meet code.

AFCIs started out being required for bedroom receptacles in 2002 (by the 1999 NEC). The 2002 NEC upped that to ALL connections in bedrooms (lighting, ceiling fans, wired smoke alarm, etc). In 2008 the NEC upped that to also include "family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas." So, pretty much everything except those locations where a GFCI is required. They also required the updated combination AFCI (CAFCI). The original AFCI detected parallel arcing (hot-to-neutral or an arc to ground). The CAFCI detects parallel as well as series (between a small gap or frayed area in the same wire) arcing. For this discussion, I'm using AFCI as a general term to include both AFCI and CAFCI (whichever one is required) unless specifically relating to one or the other.

As for downsides to AFCIs, the one issue I hear a lot of is that AFCI breakers (or receptacles) will trip with motor loads - vacuums, garage door openers, power tools, and such. If you think about it, you're naturally going to get an arc in a motor - which AFCI will likely detect and CAFCI will certainly detect. I see people say it is mostly an issue with loads over 5A, but that is pretty low if you're a DIY type person and apt to use power tools throughout the house - not to mention vacuums. Looking at internet discussions, of course you have the people who say they've never had an issue on one side and on the other side are the ones who have swapped out all their AFCIs and curse them loudly because of constant problems. Similar to my comments about GFCI protection of items needing constant power, having a AFCI trip and not noticing it can obviously cause you issues. It's something you'll have to decide for yourself - protect from the chance of an electrical fire or run the risk of not having constant power to something if the protection trips.

This is probably a lot more than you wanted to know, but I hope it answers your questions. I'll also say that I'm not a licensed electrician, so I may have missed some things or not explained them exactly correctly.