Get back into a 200 or keep new ‘22 Silverado ZR2? (1 Viewer)

[tacoduck]

I have both a 2020 AT4 (so not ZR2 but close) and a 2017 200 in my garage. We used to have a Volvo XC70 wagon and the Cruiser but my wife wanted a bigger car so we traded in the Volvo for the truck and I gave her the Cruiser to drive.

I absolutely love the AT4. I *also* absolutely love the 200. They are two completely different vehicles and are great in their own right. I have paint issues on one part of the bumper of the AT4, but otherwise have been *very* happy with my truck in the almost 50k miles of ownership. No issues with lifters on the 6.2L either. The utility was critical during multiple moves and various projects. It also fits car seats a lot better than the 200. It tows better in different ways than the 200: it's more stable on the highway with greater length and more power, but the 200 maneuvers in tighter spaces better. They both do equally well with a 6400lb boat/trailer combo at the ramp.

Really the only issue we have with the 200 is space. I know that may sound ridiculous but these car seats these days are gigantic. We have a 1 y/o now and his car seat keeps my wife from reclining her seat beyond comfortable position for travel. I would be unable to sit comfortably with another seat behind me. Furthermore with a 65lb dog and a cooler we would have essentially zero space for the amount of crap we bring, which looks like Hannibal crossing the Alps. If/when dash-2 arrives, we will likely go to a Suburban with captain's chairs.

The question ultimately will be: sell the 200 and stay with 2 cars, keep the 200 at 3 cars, sell the 200 and replace with a FJ60/62.

I went without a truck for about 4 years and I can't imagine not having one in the family.

A truck makes a fantastic travel vehicle with a toneau tri fold cover. Tons of room in bed for everything a family needs. With a family of 6 the truck doesn’t work for us.

Ultimately, the reliability of the Toyota is why I love imy lx570 so much. Truck has 90k miles and I wouldn’t hesitate to drive it cross country. My 3.5 expedition is another story.

 

[Tex68w]

I can't imagine ever giving up a 200 for a Suburban, one should be drawn and quartered for even mentioning it lol.

 

[OregonLC]

I think the ratio is:

Quality- Suburban: 6, 200: 9
Utility- Suburban: 9, 200: 6

Three kids and a dog and the 200 is struggling on anything other than a day trip. Roof boxes work as long as there’s no RTT or other competing roof loads. The Burban has more room behind the third row than the 200 has behind the 2nd. 7 people and gear ride in comfort in the Chevy but much less so in the 200.

It all comes back to what your mission is. While the GM product may spend more time around a wrench, how many days is that over the vehicle’s life? An additional 10 days in the shop over 5 years? Compare that to how many days you’d spend cursing while playing Tetris trying to fit 10 lbs of sugar into a 5 lbs bag with the 200.

Another way to measure it is to look at the comparative costs of extended warranties between brands. It’s not like the actuarial tables price out the Toyota risk at 50% of the Chevy.

Trouble is Toyota doesn’t make either 3/4 Ton trucks or Suburban sized SUVs. So there is no clear ‘best’ path. And the right vehicle today might not be the right vehicle tomorrow. Needs change over time.

The last consideration is the utility of a trailer. If you have the space to store one or more trailers these can often be force multipliers when it comes to a smaller SUV, both for domestic duties as well as Overlanding missions.

Fun fact: up until around 2013 (?) the Suburban was made in a 2500. This would be a great base of a build. When Keystone was canceled there were a large number of these being sold off in the upper Midwest. It was a tempting consideration. As is the 7.3 Expedition, but those are now crazy money even with 100k + on the clock.

So while I don’t think the Suburban fits our family’s needs, it’s definitely a utility player for certain special teams. With a larger family, there’s a Goldilocks problem that requires a compromise one way or the other, at least with the current vehicle offerings.

 

[bloc]

It all comes back to what your mission is. While the GM product may spend more time around a wrench, how many days is that over the vehicle’s life? An additional 10 days in the shop over 5 years? Compare that to how many days you’d spend cursing while playing Tetris trying to fit 10 lbs of sugar into a 5 lbs bag with the 200.

Thing is it isn’t as simple as how many days in the shop, even if I think your additional 10 day estimate is low. It’s the dozens of other small annoyances that aren’t quite shop worthy that befall a GM product as compared to a 200 that you put oil (and a radiator, once) into and just drive. And at 200k on original ball joints it is more solid with better paint than a new GM.

 

[Tex68w]

I think the ratio is:

Quality- Suburban: 6, 200: 9
Utility- Suburban: 9, 200: 6

Three kids and a dog and the 200 is struggling on anything other than a day trip. Roof boxes work as long as there’s no RTT or other competing roof loads. The Burban has more room behind the third row than the 200 has behind the 2nd. 7 people and gear ride in comfort in the Chevy but much less so in the 200.

It all comes back to what your mission is. While the GM product may spend more time around a wrench, how many days is that over the vehicle’s life? An additional 10 days in the shop over 5 years? Compare that to how many days you’d spend cursing while playing Tetris trying to fit 10 lbs of sugar into a 5 lbs bag with the 200.

Another way to measure it is to look at the comparative costs of extended warranties between brands. It’s not like the actuarial tables price out the Toyota risk at 50% of the Chevy.

Trouble is Toyota doesn’t make either 3/4 Ton trucks or Suburban sized SUVs. So there is no clear ‘best’ path. And the right vehicle today might not be the right vehicle tomorrow. Needs change over time.

The last consideration is the utility of a trailer. If you have the space to store one or more trailers these can often be force multipliers when it comes to a smaller SUV, both for domestic duties as well as Overlanding missions.

Fun fact: up until around 2013 (?) the Suburban was made in a 2500. This would be a great base of a build. When Keystone was canceled there were a large number of these being sold off in the upper Midwest. It was a tempting consideration. As is the 7.3 Expedition, but those are now crazy money even with 100k + on the clock.

So while I don’t think the Suburban fits our family’s needs, it’s definitely a utility player for certain special teams. With a larger family, there’s a Goldilocks problem that requires a compromise one way or the other, at least with the current vehicle offerings.

While I couldn't disagree more with the maintenance comparison I do agree with the size trade-offs. It's a shame that the new Sequoia will once again fall short in terms of cargo space when it goes head-to-head with the likes of the Tahoe/Suburban and Expedition, the silly shelf setup due to the hybrid batteries is going to be a deal killer for many families cross shopping it. Lucky for me we decided to skip the kids chapter so that extra space for crap isn't needed but there are times that I do long for more space in the 200. And yes, trailers are the force multiplier when it comes to adding more space with an SUV.

 

[OregonLC]

Thing is it isn’t as simple as how many days in the shop, even if I think your additional 10 day estimate is low. It’s the dozens of other small annoyances that aren’t quite shop worthy that befall a GM product as compared to a 200 that you put oil (and a radiator, once) into and just drive. And at 200k on original ball joints it is more solid with better paint than a new GM.

I hear you. But, for reference, it took three appointments at Toyota to have the PS seat belt recall completed. And that after waiting months with an intermittent airbag warning and a letter from Toyota recommending I don't drive it until a fix is in place. First appointment was just to verify that I was eligible (!). The second to determine they didn't get the right part and the third to complete the work. Each required a drop-off and a shuttle. Not by any means saying that Toyota is worse than GM, just that they're not immune from hassles. And the comparison gets even a little more shaded if you compare dollar-for-dollar on your buy-in. For example a $70k brand-new full-size vs a six-year-old Land Cruiser with 75k miles for the same. Other than fluids, I've spent exactly $8 on repairs in 25k miles on the PW. Other than stretching of the soft leather driver's seat, it looks and operates like brand new. And that would have been free, except the Fast-Lane oil change techs wouldn't swap out a sensor so I did it myself.

Absolutely true that the 200 is a superior build. To that end, we may be adding a 2nd one to the stable here shortly... so I not only believe in the quality, I also vote with my dollars. But my point is that I believe the Toyota reputation for supreme quality exceeds what may be the actual ownership experience. Fandom and confirmation bias tend to minimize the bad in a brand-based group such as this. In the same vein, I also believe the domestic's reputation for problems is also exaggerated beyond what the average user will experience. Domestics have come a long ways from the garbage that was produced in the 90s, yet that reputation still sticks. There will always be the brother-in-law who had three transmissions replaced in 75k miles and therefore [Insert Brand Name] is junk. However, what's often not mentioned is that said B-I-L also drove like a complete ashat and burned up everything he's ever owned. One theory I have is that the different demographic that owns Toyota's may itself be behind some of the longevity.

Not sure if Japanese paint restrictions are the same as in the US, but the change to water-based enamels definitely lowered the quality and longevity of finishes. Current paint is soft and chippy. Though it shouldn't be peeling. That said, I've not seen many (any) new GMs with peeling paint problems locally. Early 2000s were a different story.

While I couldn't disagree more with the maintenance comparison I do agree with the size trade-offs. It's a shame that the new Sequoia will once again fall short in terms of cargo space when it goes head-to-head with the likes of the Tahoe/Suburban and Expedition, the silly shelf setup due to the hybrid batteries is going to be a deal killer for many families cross shopping it. Lucky for me we decided to skip the kids chapter so that extra space for crap isn't needed but there are times that I do long for more space in the 200. And yes, trailers are the force multiplier when it comes to adding more space with an SUV.

Yeah, an XL Sequoia would definitely be the pièce de résistance if made. That and with a center diff.

And it's not just size that's gained with the Burb/Yukon. The feature sets in the higher trims are pretty cool compared to what Toyota has been offering. Now hopefully much of that will be improved with the 2023. But having sat in a 2022 Tundra, its a bit 'plastic-y' compared to the Power Wagon. Many touch surfaces were hard and glossy.

 

[Idaho Savage]

I own a 21 Raptor and a 21 200 series. I've actually had more problems with the 200 (battery was bad, window control was faulty) and they both have around 15k miles.

No vehicle is immune from issues, even the vaunted 200. But when you stop looking at forums where it looks like every make and model has catastrophic issues, you realize that the Land Cruiser is truly build like nothing else out there.

I haven't had a single issue with my Raptor and really enjoy it. It's much faster, a better highway rig and better MPG by a hair. Road manners are fantastic and it is REALLY fun on BLM roads. But it takes about 30 seconds in one to know they're not built by Toyota.

 

[Tex68w]

I hear you. But, for reference, it took three appointments at Toyota to have the PS seat belt recall completed. And that after waiting months with an intermittent airbag warning and a letter from Toyota recommending I don't drive it until a fix is in place. First appointment was just to verify that I was eligible (!). The second to determine they didn't get the right part and the third to complete the work. Each required a drop-off and a shuttle. Not by any means saying that Toyota is worse than GM, just that they're not immune from hassles. And the comparison gets even a little more shaded if you compare dollar-for-dollar on your buy-in. For example a $70k brand-new full-size vs a six-year-old Land Cruiser with 75k miles for the same. Other than fluids, I've spent exactly $8 on repairs in 25k miles on the PW. Other than stretching of the soft leather driver's seat, it looks and operates like brand new. And that would have been free, except the Fast-Lane oil change techs wouldn't swap out a sensor so I did it myself.

Absolutely true that the 200 is a superior build. To that end, we may be adding a 2nd one to the stable here shortly... so I not only believe in the quality, I also vote with my dollars. But my point is that I believe the Toyota reputation for supreme quality exceeds what may be the actual ownership experience. Fandom and confirmation bias tend to minimize the bad in a brand-based group such as this. In the same vein, I also believe the domestic's reputation for problems is also exaggerated beyond what the average user will experience. Domestics have come a long ways from the garbage that was produced in the 90s, yet that reputation still sticks. There will always be the brother-in-law who had three transmissions replaced in 75k miles and therefore [Insert Brand Name] is junk. However, what's often not mentioned is that said B-I-L also drove like a complete ashat and burned up everything he's ever owned. One theory I have is that the different demographic that owns Toyota's may itself be behind some of the longevity.

Not sure if Japanese paint restrictions are the same as in the US, but the change to water-based enamels definitely lowered the quality and longevity of finishes. Current paint is soft and chippy. Though it shouldn't be peeling. That said, I've not seen many (any) new GMs with peeling paint problems locally. Early 2000s were a different story.



Yeah, an XL Sequoia would definitely be the pièce de résistance if made. That and with a center diff.

And it's not just size that's gained with the Burb/Yukon. The feature sets in the higher trims are pretty cool compared to what Toyota has been offering. Now hopefully much of that will be improved with the 2023. But having sat in a 2022 Tundra, its a bit 'plastic-y' compared to the Power Wagon. Many touch surfaces were hard and glossy.

Yea, unfortunately outside of your euro makes most things are getting very plasticy-fantasticy. Glossy Piano Black plastic is regarded as "high end" trim but I find it cheap and tacky personally and our LX570 had plenty of it. IMHO, GM has the absolute worst/cheapest feeling and looking textiles of the bunch and their durability isn't far off either. I have high hopes for the new Sequoia and Tundra but I know that there will still likely be some distance between it and the rest of the pack. Our PW had a lot of plastic as well but it had a lot of leather too, they really do have an attractive interior.

I own a 21 Raptor and a 21 200 series. I've actually had more problems with the 200 (battery was bad, window control was faulty) and they both have around 15k miles.

No vehicle is immune from issues, even the vaunted 200. But when you stop looking at forums where it looks like every make and model has catastrophic issues, you realize that the Land Cruiser is truly build like nothing else out there.

I haven't had a single issue with my Raptor and really enjoy it. It's much faster, a better highway rig and better MPG by a hair. Road manners are fantastic and it is REALLY fun on BLM roads. But it takes about 30 seconds in one to know they're not built by Toyota.

I wish I had enjoyed my Raptor's but they just never clicked for me. My father had a second gen as well and he had similar complaints to mine. There's no denying that the 200 Series is more robust than most anything else on the road in its time. We will have a Bronco, Sequoia and a new Sprinter all on order at the same time here in the next month, which one(s) get to stick around alongside of the 200 will be interesting to see.

 

[Idaho Savage]

Yea, unfortunately outside of your euro makes most things are getting very plasticy-fantasticy. Glossy Piano Black plastic is regarded as "high end" trim but I find it cheap and tacky personally and our LX570 had plenty of it. IMHO, GM has the absolute worst/cheapest feeling and looking textiles of the bunch and their durability isn't far off either. I have high hopes for the new Sequoia and Tundra but I know that there will still likely be some distance between it and the rest of the pack. Our PW had a lot of plastic as well but it had a lot of leather too, they really do have an attractive interior.




I wish I had enjoyed my Raptor's but they just never clicked for me. My father had a second gen as well and he had similar complaints to mine. There's no denying that the 200 Series is more robust than most anything else on the road in its time. We will have a Bronco, Sequoia and a new Sprinter all on order at the same time here in the next month, which one(s) get to stick around alongside of the 200 will be interesting to see.

The 200 would be my only rig if it wasn't so damned slow. I get it...they're not build ifr speed and I respect that. But they are slow. Period.

 

[tacoduck]

Meh. I owned a suburban. They go to sh\t at 100k miles. I hate gm. The product is great for 50k miles, then they turn to turds. Multiple 4K fixes till the engine blows up at 100k. And they cost $80k new if you can find one.

No thankyou.

 

[Madtiger]

A colleague has a 1995? Suburban with 800,000+ miles on it. Yes you read that right. Still daily driver. Yes it is leaking some. But still runs.

 

[Tex68w]

70/80/90's era GM's were very different from their 2000+ products.

 

[Idaho Savage]

70/80/90's era GM's were very different from their 2000+ products.

Late 90's 5.3L is one of the better V8s ever made, no joke. And I hate GM. But I did put one in my 40!

 

[outlaw4shrt]

So I've owned a couple of mid 2000's HD series iron block LQ4 powered chevy's and I have to say, I loved them. I don't have that blue card yet (I know you guys have CAC's now) so I'm not in the market for anything that new, but there will always be a fond place in my heart for those old chevy's.

 

[Madtiger]

A colleague has a 1995? Suburban with 800,000+ miles on it. Yes you read that right. Still daily driver. Yes it is leaking some. But still runs.

Just to prove that I am not lying.

 

[1Maverick]

I just drove past a newer High country Suburban all blacked out. Not sure if you can order it that way but it looked really good from the outside, no idea what the inside looks like. I imagine they aren’t cheap and would most likely still take a black label Navigator over it if I needed a highway cruiser with kids in tow . Unfortunately, for some odd reason the Navigator doesn’t have the blacked out option in any color configuration.

 

[04UZJ100]

I just drove past a newer High country Suburban all blacked out. Not sure if you can order it that way but it looked really good from the outside, no idea what the inside looks like. I imagine they aren’t cheap and would most likely still take a black label Navigator over it if I needed a highway cruiser with kids in tow . Unfortunately, for some odd reason the Navigator doesn’t have the blacked out option in any color configuration.

Thing will be falling apart in 3 years.

 

[Artie]

I just drove past a newer High country Suburban all blacked out. Not sure if you can order it that way but it looked really good from the outside, no idea what the inside looks like. I imagine they aren’t cheap and would most likely still take a black label Navigator over it if I needed a highway cruiser with kids in tow . Unfortunately, for some odd reason the Navigator doesn’t have the blacked out option in any color configuration.

Didn’t Lincoln start offering what they call the “Monochromatic” option for black or white out? This may not be available for their Black Label but I’m fairly certain it’s on the Reserve. It’s been a while since I really paid attention to their lineups even if I have one sitting in the garage… I spend more time on here than the ford/Lincoln fanboy site.

 

[tacoduck]

For giggles I priced out a 4x4 GMC Yukon XL slt. Price was $74k plus 8k in dealer add ons. For $82k I could find a very nice lx570 or LC. I know which one will still be on the road in 15 years.

 

[OregonLC]

To be fair, that's a reflection of current supply chain. Typically, GM is a $5-10k discount off MSRP not the other way around. So the $74k Yukon would really be in the $60s. And while longevity may be shorter, utility is higher. Not advocating for either, but it's not a simple exercise in just price.