Builds The "Red Rocket" Troopy (3 Viewers)

[Felde]

We probably should get a '3B (original no-turbo) experience thread' going..
..once @theglobb has solved these troubles and hopefully returns from an epic trip, with The Red Rocket Troopy and the new 3B still married in love , tons of memories for him and his fellows , tons of pics and vids for us (like last trip just epic) ... and lots of successfully covered miles to do 3B statistics on.
You'll make it!

 

[lacalvette]

As for injection pump timing , I would start with the pump where it is. (If the engine ran fine). Unless you increase fuel rack max, shouldn’t have trouble with EGT.
For sure I wouldn’t advance timing, max peak pressure too close of TDC and not good for an engine.

Edit: the small camshaft in the pump probably wear too with the cam lobe becoming lower. Then plunger stroke is less and can be compensated by giving more fuel. But if the max fuel rack is not increased, may turn out to be a less powerful 3B

 

[Bogan]

Then, at that point, the only person he could hang with and be buddies with would be @Bogan …



<love ya John…>

Better R2.8 company than blown B engine company! haha

 

[Honger]

This thread has stayed epic... looking forward to seeing the swap!

 

[theglobb]

This thread has stayed epic... looking forward to seeing the swap!

Well, here it is! Swap is done, engine is in, everything is solidish, and it runs!!! like crap. It does move though! I couldn't have done this without @LuckyDevil such a life saver. If he ever needs any help, on behalf of me, please do so. Doing this on paved ground and being protected from the elements has been so nice, I don't think I could have got the engine in if I was trying to in the dirt, even on plywood and everything else it was just so difficult to pull it out, let alone out it back in!!

Had everything buttoned up and bolted together by the end of Wednesday, just had to wait for my injectors to get back from the shop, $250!!! I really hope it was worth it cause I was not expecting it to be that much, regardless hopefully I'll be able to trust these injectors for much more to come. Which leads me to the injectors... first off I used the new copper washers the shop gave me with them when I got them back, NOPE BAD VERY BAD. I learned my lesson as these washers literally melted... like within 1 minute of running they became a puddle of copper in my injector ports, which obviously didn't seal the cylinders well and there was all kind of crap coming out of them.

The other thing about my injectors... I gave them 8 and told them to give me back 4 of the best. Well, all of my "fully rebuilt" injectors as of 2019 (50k miles ago) were total trash they said, failed miserably, horribly. The injectors from my "new" engine with unknown history were fine. The work done to what is now my car by a certain well known shop/person in CO has been pretty crap, I just never said anything about it. When I first got the troopy there and took the valve cover off there were multiple bolts that were hand tight and washers that were broken and split just laying around with all my valves... was not happy as at that time the head was replaced less than 1-2 thousand miles prior, didn't say anything at the time cause everyone was saying how I wouldn't need to worry about my rig since "_____" worked on it etc etc. My transfer case was also rebuilt by him, I'm not doubting that it wasn't rebuilt, just something has always been wrong with it. It'll always make a horrible grinding noise when I'm engine braking/decelerating in 4-HI in 2nd gear and above... Not something a rebuilt T-Case should do I think. and finally, the reason I'm bringing all of this up is the injectors which I had absolutely no worry in the world about since they were pretty fresh, being "rebuilt" pretty recently.

Sorry for the tangent, just not pleased by the work done to my rig by a person who seems to be viewed highly in the Colorado cruiser community. Not gonna say a name cause I don't wanna cause any drama, just if you live near Boulder or Denver you probably know who it is, you have been warned.


Back to regular programming
So the engine starts now and idles great, runs amazingly until you rev it over what is probably 2 grand, then it starts sputtering and stumbling over itself. The exact same symptoms that I had when I crap ton of air was in my fuel lines and my injection pump diaphragm had a hole in it. I put a brand new diaphragm in while I had the engine out, so much easier to do, so I can cross that off the list. It's getting air... it's getting some fuel, enough to idle great, and it has compression. This all leads me to air in the fuel lines... I just can't bleed it out. Hand prime until it's about to burst, crack all the injector lines while its running, and that little bleed screw on the fuel filter. Any more tips how to bleed the system??? pure diesel comes out of the bleed screw, no bubbles or anything. Or did air just creep up my fuel lines to my tank since they had been unplugged for a month? Any ideas or tips will be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[robmobile73]

Well, here it is! Swap is done, engine is in, everything is solidish, and it runs!!! like crap. It does move though! I couldn't have done this without @LuckyDevil such a life saver. If he ever needs any help, on behalf of me, please do so. Doing this on paved ground and being protected from the elements has been so nice, I don't think I could have got the engine in if I was trying to in the dirt, even on plywood and everything else it was just so difficult to pull it out, let alone out it back in!!


View attachment 3047907View attachment 3047906View attachment 3047909

Had everything buttoned up and bolted together by the end of Wednesday, just had to wait for my injectors to get back from the shop, $250!!! I really hope it was worth it cause I was not expecting it to be that much, regardless hopefully I'll be able to trust these injectors for much more to come. Which leads me to the injectors... first off I used the new copper washers the shop gave me with them when I got them back, NOPE BAD VERY BAD. I learned my lesson as these washers literally melted... like within 1 minute of running they became a puddle of copper in my injector ports, which obviously didn't seal the cylinders well and there was all kind of crap coming out of them.
View attachment 3047905
View attachment 3047904

The other thing about my injectors... I gave them 8 and told them to give me back 4 of the best. Well, all of my "fully rebuilt" injectors as of 2019 (50k miles ago) were total trash they said, failed miserably, horribly. The injectors from my "new" engine with unknown history were fine. The work done to what is now my car by a certain well known shop/person in CO has been pretty crap, I just never said anything about it. When I first got the troopy there and took the valve cover off there were multiple bolts that were hand tight and washers that were broken and split just laying around with all my valves... was not happy as at that time the head was replaced less than 1-2 thousand miles prior, didn't say anything at the time cause everyone was saying how I wouldn't need to worry about my rig since "_____" worked on it etc etc. My transfer case was also rebuilt by him, I'm not doubting that it wasn't rebuilt, just something has always been wrong with it. It'll always make a horrible grinding noise when I'm engine braking/decelerating in 4-HI in 2nd gear and above... Not something a rebuilt T-Case should do I think. and finally, the reason I'm bringing all of this up is the injectors which I had absolutely no worry in the world about since they were pretty fresh, being "rebuilt" pretty recently.

Sorry for the tangent, just not pleased by the work done to my rig by a person who seems to be viewed highly in the Colorado cruiser community. Not gonna say a name cause I don't wanna cause any drama, just if you live near Boulder or Denver you probably know who it is, you have been warned.


Back to regular programming
So the engine starts now and idles great, runs amazingly until you rev it over what is probably 2 grand, then it starts sputtering and stumbling over itself. The exact same symptoms that I had when I crap ton of air was in my fuel lines and my injection pump diaphragm had a hole in it. I put a brand new diaphragm in while I had the engine out, so much easier to do, so I can cross that off the list. It's getting air... it's getting some fuel, enough to idle great, and it has compression. This all leads me to air in the fuel lines... I just can't bleed it out. Hand prime until it's about to burst, crack all the injector lines while its running, and that little bleed screw on the fuel filter. Any more tips how to bleed the system??? pure diesel comes out of the bleed screw, no bubbles or anything. Or did air just creep up my fuel lines to my tank since they had been unplugged for a month? Any ideas or tips will be greatly appreciated!!!

Not trying to give you a hard time, or stear you anywhere. I got new injectors for my engine. Just saying: These have worked for me for over a year now: Amazon.com: Sz Machparts 4pcs Fuel Injector Nozzel Assy 23600-56020 093500-2480 Fit for Toyota 3B : Automotive - https://www.amazon.com/Machparts-Injector-Nozzel-23600-56020-093500-2480/dp/B08NK6C64C?pd_rd_w=TKGIz&content-id=amzn1.sym.bc622850-a717-4d94-96c3-7cc183488298&pf_rd_p=bc622850-a717-4d94-96c3-7cc183488298&pf_rd_r=D3PQHQCFMYMFY9183Y6Q&pd_rd_wg=iG3Rb&pd_rd_r=752cd8a7-d00d-4b5c-9cfa-4d49d848246a&pd_rd_i=B08NK6C64C&psc=1&ref_=pd_bap_d_rp_1_t

 

[OGBeno]

Present and accounted for.

 

[Felde]

Yea! Congrats. Major things accompolished
I bleed my fuel lines on my BJ73 3B when I revised my fuellines, using a pump that essentially is a 0.6L syringe.
I connected it to the hose that goes in the fuel pump inlet with a clear hose and a piece of hard tube. Fill up sedimenter and fuel filter.
I had to pull about 2L of fuel trough unless it eventually was free of bubbles.
Imho no way to do that using the tiny priming pump.
For the line fuelpump to injectors you crack the injectors or glow plugs open and can use the priming pump, I guess. (Procedure had been described here on mud, but I never did it myself yet, so others my charm in here.)
You can tell if there is air in the line to the filter by actuating the priming pump with the bleeder nipple on the fuel filter shut. If not hard within 2 actuation, it has air in. Pump it to pressure and open bleeder until pressure is released and no more fuel / bubbles come out. Shut bleeder. Repeat until hard by 2 actuation.
Good luck!

 

[Roastchestnuts]

Well, here it is! Swap is done, engine is in, everything is solidish, and it runs!!! like crap. It does move though! I couldn't have done this without @LuckyDevil such a life saver. If he ever needs any help, on behalf of me, please do so. Doing this on paved ground and being protected from the elements has been so nice, I don't think I could have got the engine in if I was trying to in the dirt, even on plywood and everything else it was just so difficult to pull it out, let alone out it back in!!


View attachment 3047907View attachment 3047906View attachment 3047909

Had everything buttoned up and bolted together by the end of Wednesday, just had to wait for my injectors to get back from the shop, $250!!! I really hope it was worth it cause I was not expecting it to be that much, regardless hopefully I'll be able to trust these injectors for much more to come. Which leads me to the injectors... first off I used the new copper washers the shop gave me with them when I got them back, NOPE BAD VERY BAD. I learned my lesson as these washers literally melted... like within 1 minute of running they became a puddle of copper in my injector ports, which obviously didn't seal the cylinders well and there was all kind of crap coming out of them.
View attachment 3047905
View attachment 3047904

The other thing about my injectors... I gave them 8 and told them to give me back 4 of the best. Well, all of my "fully rebuilt" injectors as of 2019 (50k miles ago) were total trash they said, failed miserably, horribly. The injectors from my "new" engine with unknown history were fine. The work done to what is now my car by a certain well known shop/person in CO has been pretty crap, I just never said anything about it. When I first got the troopy there and took the valve cover off there were multiple bolts that were hand tight and washers that were broken and split just laying around with all my valves... was not happy as at that time the head was replaced less than 1-2 thousand miles prior, didn't say anything at the time cause everyone was saying how I wouldn't need to worry about my rig since "_____" worked on it etc etc. My transfer case was also rebuilt by him, I'm not doubting that it wasn't rebuilt, just something has always been wrong with it. It'll always make a horrible grinding noise when I'm engine braking/decelerating in 4-HI in 2nd gear and above... Not something a rebuilt T-Case should do I think. and finally, the reason I'm bringing all of this up is the injectors which I had absolutely no worry in the world about since they were pretty fresh, being "rebuilt" pretty recently.

Sorry for the tangent, just not pleased by the work done to my rig by a person who seems to be viewed highly in the Colorado cruiser community. Not gonna say a name cause I don't wanna cause any drama, just if you live near Boulder or Denver you probably know who it is, you have been warned.


Back to regular programming
So the engine starts now and idles great, runs amazingly until you rev it over what is probably 2 grand, then it starts sputtering and stumbling over itself. The exact same symptoms that I had when I crap ton of air was in my fuel lines and my injection pump diaphragm had a hole in it. I put a brand new diaphragm in while I had the engine out, so much easier to do, so I can cross that off the list. It's getting air... it's getting some fuel, enough to idle great, and it has compression. This all leads me to air in the fuel lines... I just can't bleed it out. Hand prime until it's about to burst, crack all the injector lines while its running, and that little bleed screw on the fuel filter. Any more tips how to bleed the system??? pure diesel comes out of the bleed screw, no bubbles or anything. Or did air just creep up my fuel lines to my tank since they had been unplugged for a month? Any ideas or tips will be greatly appreciated!!!

Congrats on getting the rocket going again! I hope it will be easy for you to get the air in the lines out! Also I wonder if those bad injectors were causing the engine to bog down quicker? seems like they were pretty trash.

and don't you just love when you find Janky crap done to a car/engine drivetrain that was supposedly rebuilt! I had a 22re in a truck briefly that had higher miles. the previous owner said that he had reworked the valves and replaced the head and head gasket. 5k before I purchased. After a few thousand miles the valves were getting louder. I decided to adjust the valve lash. (witch was out of spec) after pulling the valve cover to adjust the valve lash I realized this guy was full of crap. It was full of caked on oil and crap. I think the rocker arms literally had an 8th inch of sludge on them. I could also see signs of head gasket leaking like weird oily watery gunk on the valve cover inside. I believed the previous owner either reused the old head or the old head gasket. IDK but it was not reworked in the way that was to my standards. I ended up replacing it all anyway due to the fact that I had a timing chain issue and figured I would just re do everything that was said to be new parts. In the end I sold the truck to fund a 3rd gen 4runner.

 

[cruiserdan]

Present and accounted for.

View attachment 3048013

 

[LDowney]

Update??
Did you find the cause?

 

[theglobb]

Update??
Did you find the cause?

Yep!! just like @Felde said, ton of air in the lines. After bleeding it for a longgggg time I was able to get all the air out of the lines and it runs great now, ran SUPER rich on fuel, looked like I was a squid inking everywhere I drove. Turned the fuel screw 1&1/2 turns in and now its not as bad but still blowing smoke, much more than my old engine turbo'd and more than my old engine NA. I have probably put 100 miles on it so far and have no issues besides that... doing a hard core cooling system flush multiple times, seafoamed the crap out of the engine in the intake and crank case.

It's slow... I was hoping maybeeee it would have a bit more pep since my injectors were trash and my engine was likely neglected... and it probably does, but a 3B is a 3B, especially noticeable in a troopy. Thinking I'm gonna have to turbo it again just to be able to drive it at app state for this coming year and on the trip in a couple days, plus if I were to keep it NA I'd have to rework my whole exhaust system in the engine bay/downpipe and I really don't have the money to pay anyone to do that. Every last cent I have is going to this trip, then I'll get a job at college and start being able to pay for gas. I won't be turning the fuel up at all unless needed once I turbo it, want to have the most air possible going into the engine, which was what I did with my last motor...


one thing I don't exactly understand is boost and its relationship with damaging an engine... I always hear that 15-20lbs of boost is a lot for a motor to take... but that's assuming that the motor is also tuned to use that extra air and make more power with it... if I'm just putting more air into the engine and not more fuel, thus making the burn more complete/cooler, is the boost from the turbo still damaging my engine? All it's doing is giving the combustion process more air to burn that diesel off efficiently, especially at altitude when my main issue with the NA 3B just seemed that it needed more air in the engine to balance out the ratio of extra fuel going into the cylinders. Hopefully, my ramblings are making some sense... basically does the forced induction of air itself hurt my engine or is it the forced induction mixed with increasing the fuel that would obviously hurt it?

and don't you just love when you find Janky crap done to a car/engine drivetrain that was supposedly rebuilt!

yea... a pretty horrible feeling. What takes me back even more cause this was a reputable guy that many people had vouched for, not just some methhead on craigslist trying to rip some poor sucker off. Sorry to hear of your misfortune with the 4Runner. Whatever happened with my engine is in the past... it blew up, whatever, that guy's crappy work isn't gonna be messing it up anymore now lol. That being said if my "rebuilt" TCase goes out in the soonish future or starts having some intense issues I will probably be calling this guy out, really REALLY hoping it doesn't

 

[jblueridge]

Seems like a turbo mounted on a NA engine could blow the head gasket or something.
15psi of boost is one atmosphere. Thus you get more oxygen as you said but you also have more air being compressed. This extra pressure may cause damage.

 

[coldtaco]

boost doesn't necessarily ruin a engine, it is heat. that's why it is really recommended to have a boost gauge and a egt.

 

[theglobb]

Seems like a turbo mounted on a NA engine could blow the head gasket or something.
15psi of boost is one atmosphere. Thus you get more oxygen as you said but you also have more air being compressed. This extra pressure may cause damage.

Yea, that's always a risk I knew, my head gasket on my old engine was the upgraded MLS one, and lucky enough on my new engine it is the upgraded MLS one as well. Guess the old HG blew out on the poor Swedish sucker before me. And yea... I just don't know/understand the physics behind the fact on if just compressed air alone may damage the engine...

boost doesn't necessarily ruin a engine, it is heat. that's why it is really recommended to have a boost gauge and a egt.

Yea that's what I thought. I had a boost, water temp, and EGT. tuned my prior engine to never go above 1050f on the steepest of hills fully floored, practically no black smoke except on startup, I wanted the most possible life out of that engine and then the crank failed catastrophically.

per Gerg and others, on a turboed 3B timing should be retarded a bit and I think you did that. There is a thread where Gerg tried advance timing and ended up breaking the crankshaft. There is others people too who add the same « catastrophic « issue.

I will definitely be retarding the timing, just like i did last time... almost tempted to do it even more than I did last time, but I don't know where it would be too much or too far. Might talk with gerg and see what he says.

 

[LDowney]

Thanks for the update.

Peanut gallery thoughts (after a nice glass of scotch)... Accept and appreciate life in the slow lane while you are in school. As you said, a 3B is a 3B. A NA 3B stands a much better chance to see you through you undergraduate and possibly your graduate school years.

I have a turbo on my 3B, but I have it for fuel economy, not power. I have the fuel volume set so low, I wonder if she makes any more power than a NA 3B. My max boost is 8psi and I hope it is not too high.

Also you asked why a turbo'd 3B might not last compared to a NA 3B. My thinking might not be correct but ... In the context of fatigue life for machinery made of steel; the fatigue service life will last for ever if the working stress levels are low enough to get to X million cycles. However, if the working stress levels are increased at some point late in the service life [i.e., read add a turbo on a used 3B (with thousands of miles of use) to increase power], then the fatigue life of the machine is completely changed. Now the accumulated stress cycles to date count as fatigue damage on each component. At the new higher working stress, each component has a finite service life that accounts for the fatigue damage already accumulated plus the new higher working stresses that the machine is now being subjected to. In all likelihood, the engineers at Toyota accounted for this when they designed (and sized) all the components in the 3B which may explain why unmolested 3Bs have a history of running forever.
Hence, basic metallurgy of steel may explain why turbo'ing your new-to-you 3B will lead to early failure.

Full disclosure... I am not a metallurgist but I have experienced appreciation for the value of paying attention to fatigue life of parts/your machinery. You ignore it and it will bit you back.

End of the peanut gallery.

Enjoy your Cruiser with a new engine breathing life into her. Good luck on your summer trip.

 

[FJBen]

You need more fuel to get more boost. So short of wiring the wastegate shut, you still need that fuel to get that boost climbing up.


Give and take with boost/air/heat.

You are increasing cylinder pressure and stressing the engine more. Plus being indirect your compression is already higher

There is a lot of science/theory on turbo matching, volumetric efficiency, back pressure , emp, etc etc. tons to read up on and how it affects your engine.

 

[theglobb]

Thanks for the update.

Peanut gallery thoughts (after a nice glass of scotch)... Accept and appreciate life in the slow lane while you are in school. As you said, a 3B is a 3B. A NA 3B stands a much better chance to see you through you undergraduate and possibly your graduate school years.

I have a turbo on my 3B, but I have it for fuel economy, not power. I have the fuel volume set so low, I wonder if she makes any more power than a NA 3B. My max boost is 8psi and I hope it is not too high.

Also you asked why a turbo'd 3B might not last compared to a NA 3B. My thinking might not be correct but ... In the context of fatigue life for machinery made of steel; the fatigue service life will last for ever if the working stress levels are low enough to get to X million cycles. However, if the working stress levels are increased at some point late in the service life [i.e., read add a turbo on a used 3B (with thousands of miles of use) to increase power], then the fatigue life of the machine is completely changed. Now the accumulated stress cycles to date count as fatigue damage on each component. At the new higher working stress, each component has a finite service life that accounts for the fatigue damage already accumulated plus the new higher working stresses that the machine is now being subjected to. In all likelihood, the engineers at Toyota accounted for this when they designed (and sized) all the components in the 3B which may explain why unmolested 3Bs have a history of running forever.
Hence, basic metallurgy of steel may explain why turbo'ing your new-to-you 3B will lead to early failure.

Full disclosure... I am not a metallurgist but I have experienced appreciation for the value of paying attention to fatigue life of parts/your machinery. You ignore it and it will bit you back.

End of the peanut gallery.

Enjoy your Cruiser with a new engine breathing life into her. Good luck on your summer trip.

Thank you for the peanut gallery. This is where I struggled to find the balance, if its heat that makes my engines life expectancy shorten then adding air (turbo) to make the burn complete would make it a lot less hot, but adding the turbo shortens the life expectancy of the engine even though it would be running cooler. I wouldn't want the troopy any faster. I just want more air in the engine for when I'm at higher altitudes, as I was stuck in 1st, sometimes 2nd gear on every hill I encountered when NA at only 3,000ft.

It wasn't even life in the slow lane, that's how my troopy has always been with a turbo. But without a turbo, I was just a genuine traffic hazard, unsafe for me as well as every other driver on the road up at Appalachian State. I'm used to crawling up hills at 25-30 mph with the turbo but for the brief bit I had no turbo installed it was 1st gear 10mph up a lot of roads, where I was being passed by semis going 65+ just a very vulnerable feeling and would be only a matter of time till someone rear-ends me.

You need more fuel to get more boost. So short of wiring the wastegate shut, you still need that fuel to get that boost climbing up.


Give and take with boost/air/heat.

You are increasing cylinder pressure and stressing the engine more. Plus being indirect your compression is already higher

There is a lot of science/theory on turbo matching, volumetric efficiency, back pressure , emp, etc etc. tons to read up on and how it affects your engine.

I did have the wastegate wired shut, well actually turnbuckled shut as I thought a wire might stretch over time. And yes, I figured it's a lot more in depth than my very base understanding of whats happening and how it affects different parts of the engine. My turbo itself matches pretty evenly all around for my engine, same family/size of turbo that Gerg uses in his turbo kits he sells.

If I have enough time to spare I may do a test trip to Boone, 3 days, while naturally aspirated and see how it does. I don't think I'll have the time to spare though. Wish there was a place closer that was high in altitude with hills.

 

[AirheadNut]

I'm no expert either, but what @LDowney said above is exactly what the Mechanics of Materials classes I've taken would suggest. I would also add for more specific context, a 3B has a 20:1 compression ratio, a 13B-T is 17.6:1. If you put 15psi boost through your 3B at sea level you are effectively doubling the absolute pressure of air and therefore the mass of air you are putting into the engine. This air must then be compressed further in a 3B than a 13B-T, significantly raising the cylinder pressures and increasing the stresses on the engine internals. This is why most factory turbo engines run lower compression than their NA counterparts, and in addition tend to have larger gudgeon pins, connecting rod and crankshaft bearings, beefier crankshafts and thicker piston crowns.

Doubling the air mass in the engine won't necessarily double the cylinder pressure due to compression and pumping losses, but it will still be a significant increase in the stress the bottom end will see, even without considering the added horsepower the engine will then be making. The math is fairly complicated, but these increased stresses will have a significant impact on the fatigue lifespan of multiple components in the engine, with the crankshaft and crank bearing caps taking the brunt of it. All that said, I think a very mild turbo install (probably less than 10psi) with an aim to counteract power loss at altitude is probably a good idea.

Life in the slow lane is still feasible, even on US interstate highways. These people from Austria stayed at my brother's place for a couple of weeks while repairing some damage from a run-in with a logging truck on a forest service road. They traveled from Montana to the East Coast on the interstate with a tired, ~130hp NA diesel powering their truck. Top speed was around 50-55mph.

 

[flx]

Not vetting if it's good or bad but a trick that people around here do when they turbo a BJ4*, particularly if the block has been shaved, is to put 2 headgaskets to lower the compression.