Choosing lift (1 Viewer)

[1Maverick]

Hi all! Please help me pick the best suspension system for my 2020 Heritage(non 3rd row). I am currently running BP-51 w/1722 rear springs on 285/70r18 with Slee sliders. I have no plans on adding additional weight or tow with it. My use is 99% hwy travel with the occasional green and blue level rated trails. I find the current setup simply harsh every time I hit a pothole or choppy pavement with high edges, also making the rears seats bounce with or without passengers. I am currently considering Fox 2.0 and or the newer Dobinson MMR 3-way. I have also considered just changing my tires to something like a 285/65r18 Revo3 that weighs 10lbs less or the new Wildpeak 285/65r18 non-e version which is even lighter in the 40lbs range.

My goal is to make the 200 a more hwy. friendly ride for the family without having to dodge every small pothole to not wakeup the sleeping passengers on long road trips. Yes, I could just put all the stock suspension stuff back on but I hated how it nosed dived and rolled around turns. Plus, the 200 just looks so much better lifted

If you have a BP-51 and love it, please share how you have your rebound and compression setup for a comfortable ride or if using different springs. I hate to replace it to only spend another few thousand for a barely noticeable result.

Thank you for your help

 

[jefo13]

sounds like a job for filthy off-road

 

[1Maverick]

sounds like a job for filthy off-road

I’ve tried calling him many times to no avail. He’s not easiest to nail down for a phone call as you have request a time and day plus he charges you for consulting. I think Kings might be overkill for my use case.

 

[CharlieS]

For 99% highway, you don't need high performance off road suspensions. Stock suspension and a P metric tire in stock size all day long.

 

[1Maverick]

For 99% highway, you don't need high performance off road suspensions. Stock suspension and a P metric tire in stock size all day long.

Absolutely agree. But, I love the way the LC looks with some additional height. Would like to find that happy medium, one of the reasons I like the idea of adjustable suspension, so long as it allows a compliant ride with the ability to absorb the bumps without making the ride feel like a tractor. I am running Ridge Grapplers(came with vehicle) and thinking that going with a less aggressive 10lbs. lighter tire might make a big impact for a better ride.

 

[jefo13]

Absolutely agree. But, I love the way the LC looks with some additional height. Would like to find that happy medium, one of the reasons I like the idea of adjustable suspension, so long as it allows a compliant ride with the ability to absorb the bumps without making the ride feel like a tractor. I am running Ridge Grapplers(came with vehicle) and thinking that going with a less aggressive 10lbs. lighter tire might make a big impact for a better ride.

BP51 is adjustable (valving) have you tried different settings

 

[1Maverick]

Update: I went to adjust the rear rebound and also the compression of rear shock and dang near smashed my thumb trying to turn them as the wrench lost grip. When I try turning the dials on either shock, the entire shock housing turns instead. I think I’ve had with these darn shocks. Besides that, what a pain to adjust in the first place. I like the idea but not very user friendly. I would really hate them in the winter.

 

[TeCKis300]

@1Maverick what tire pressure are you running?

BP51 is adjustable (valving) have you tried different settings

Adjusting damping only goes so far. It ultimately has to be matched with spring rate, as it's spring rate that predominantly dictates ride quality. With too little damping, the ride can become worse as there's insufficient damping to absorb energy from bump compression travel and rebound of the springs.

 

[1Maverick]

@1Maverick what tire pressure are you running?



Adjusting damping only goes so far. It ultimately has to be matched with spring rate, as it's spring rate that predominantly dictates ride quality. With too little damping, the ride can become worse as there's insufficient damping to absorb energy from bump compression travel and rebound of the springs.

I’m running 37psi. Thank you, I thought about spring rate as well but wasn’t sure if anything less then my current 2722 would be sufficient in keeping with the 1” lift height. I know ICON makes a progressive spring and I believe Dobinson has one as well. Would that be a better option for a more comfortable ride. I have zero complaints about the front end, the rear is definitely a problem.

 

[jefo13]

@1Maverick what tire pressure are you running?



Adjusting damping only goes so far. It ultimately has to be matched with spring rate, as it's spring rate that predominantly dictates ride quality. With too little damping, the ride can become worse as there's insufficient damping to absorb energy from bump compression travel and rebound of the springs.

Good call 2722 might be too much for stock load... I have 2721 and I still have plenty of lift (I feel like 1/2" more than I would have liked). You might be ok with 2721 (22.5" rear measurement)

 

[1Maverick]

Good call 2722 might be too much for stock load... I have 2721 and I still have plenty of lift (I feel like 1/2" more than I would have liked). You might be ok with 2721 (22.5" rear measurement)

I think this will be my next step. The 2721 would be a better option but it might require a spacer to keep my truck level as right now my rear 32.5”. May just bite the bullet and install Dobinson MMR 3-way

 

[jefo13]

I think this will be my next step. The 2721 would be a better option but it might require a spacer to keep my truck level as right now my rear 32.5”. May just bite the bullet and install Dobinson MMR 3-way

measure to the center of the hub to compare...

 

[1Maverick]

measure to the center of the hub to compare...

23” front
23 1/4” rear

 

[jefo13]

23” front
23 1/4” rear

OK yeah, that's a lot of lift...

 

[100kiwi]

I think this will be my next step. The 2721 would be a better option but it might require a spacer to keep my truck level as right now my rear 32.5”. May just bite the bullet and install Dobinson MMR 3-way

I have an extra set of 2721s, shoot me a message if you're interested.

 

[bloc]

You mention liking the lift and wanting to avoid the nose dive of stock suspension..

Keep in mind a vehicle lifted as much as yours needs to be relatively stiff to be safe on the road. You’ve significantly changed the center of gravity and roll-center and if you still had stock spring rates it would wallow around even more than factory.

All of the changes we make require compromises. I’m not saying your ride can’t improve, just bringing up if you want it that tall it shouldn’t ride like stock.

I agree 2721s would be a good first step.. but they won’t do anything for the front. Maybe see whether those adjusters are easier to deal with.

When looking at 285/65 tires non-e won’t be good enough. You need to avoid LT tires all together. Even c-load will require ~7-10 more psi than stock for a given load rating and in my experience the extra tire pressure is a major negative factor on ride quality, much more significant than tire weight. Avoid highway driving (where too much heat may be generated) but you can experiment with lowering your tires to stock pressure and observe the improvement over local bumps and pot holes you know of.

 

[1Maverick]

I have an extra set of 2721s, shoot me a message if you're interested.

Thank you! I may take you up on it.

You mention liking the lift and wanting to avoid the nose dive of stock suspension..

Keep in mind a vehicle lifted as much as yours needs to be relatively stiff to be safe on the road. You’ve significantly changed the center of gravity and roll-center and if you still had stock spring rates it would wallow around even more than factory.

All of the changes we make require compromises. I’m not saying your ride can’t improve, just bringing up if you want it that tall it shouldn’t ride like stock.

I agree 2721s would be a good first step.. but they won’t do anything for the front. Maybe see whether those adjusters are easier to deal with.

When looking at 285/65 tires non-e won’t be good enough. You need to avoid LT tires all together. Even c-load will require ~7-10 more psi than stock for a given load rating and in my experience the extra tire pressure is a major negative factor on ride quality, much more significant than tire weight. Avoid highway driving (where too much heat may be generated) but you can experiment with lowering your tires to stock pressure and observe the improvement over local bumps and pot holes you know of.

Thanks for the insight. The lift height is nice and all but definitely not necessary for my use case and not exactly practical for me either. I didn’t ask for the height to be as it is as I thought all BP-51 installs with 2722 are this height standard. A one 1-1.5” total lift would be fine in my book if it allows me to produce a more comfortable ride on the pavement. I have no qualms about taking out my current suspension and starting over as I can just resell as it only has maybe 6k miles on it or just keep them as a backup. Price is not really concern of mine if it produces the results I’m wanting. I most certainly prefer less body roll as to why the stock suspension was not for me. Any help you can provide on what system you’d install on my 200 would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

 

[TeCKis300]

@linuxgod made a great reference for various springs and spring rates quoted below.

For reference, the stock LC200 rear spring rate which I didn't see listed here is 170 lbs/in.

The OME series of rear springs start at dramatically higher spring rates, 270+. I don't believe the 2721 will do what you want given that it only gives up 5 lb/in to the 2722.

Separately, while many do it, it's really not best practice with suspension tuning to use spring rate to compensate for lift. Free length is best used. Since that's not completely tailorable, trim packers / coil spacers should be used. They get a bad rap, but even stock, many manufacturers use it as it's the right tool for the job.

If your rear is as oversprung as you say, with the front end manageable - softening the rear end alone may help the front end ride even better. Reason is that some of the energy at the rear axle is being transferred and managed at the front as it's comparably that much softer? Tuning is best done as a system.

Ok I've spent obscenely too much time on this. Bumper is painted and ready for installation this weekend. Pre-bumper I have the Tough Dog TDC931L springs and when I'm loaded with family and cooler I sit very level (no rake), or a bit of squat if I have the trailer hooked up... measurements below from top lip of my 17" Icon wheels to the fender (I used that instead of the center hub because it's hard to determine the precise center):

Setup	LF	RF	LR	RR
Vehicle only, airbags at 5psi	12	12.5	13.5	14
Trailer hitched, no weight dist.	13	13	11.5	12.25
Trailer hitched, WD set	12.75	12.5	12.25	12.75
Trailer hitched, WD set, 30 psi	12.75	12.5	13	13.25

I've got about 1.5" of rake when empty right now. I'm running about 1" of squat when trailered but otherwise unladen with no family or camping gear (1/2"-3/4" too high in the front, 1/2"-3/4" too low in the rear). Laden with family and dog and it's another 300# in the rear. And I haven't yet added 200# of bumper plus all the leverage associated with crap hanging off the rear. Thus even without have actually installed it yet (hoping to do it this weekend) I'm pretty damn sure I will need to step up the rear springs. That said, without the trailer but with an extra 300# in the trunk (kid + dog) the ride is spot on plush and perfect right now.

I charted all the rear spring options I could find that would be relevant. Info below is what the vendors claim. My setup is in green. Options I'm currently considering are in orange. It's interesting to me how some of the numbers line up but others don't. For instance the heights, coil wraps, wire diameter, and #/in ratings between the King KTRR-131HHD and OME2723 are nearly identical, but the King spring is rated for 100kg more constant load. They also look similar to the Tough Dog TDC931VHL spring but that has a minimum constant load rating at the top of the King and OME max range - and that plus my current experience with the basic Tough Dog spring makes me think the constant load ratings somehow matter more than the free height, wire diameter, and compression specs. OME and IronMan spring options are half the cost of the Tough Dog and King options in the USA... otherwise I'd likely just step up to the next TD spring.

vendor	part #	l/h mm	r/h mm	coils	wire mm	low lb/in	high lb/in	min load kg	max constant kg	min load lb	max const lb
King Springs	KTRR-131H	450​	470​	7.2​	18​	240​		100​	250​	220​	550​
King Springs	KTRR-131HD	430​	450​	7.2​	19​	275​		100​	300​	220​	660​
King Springs	KTRR-131HHD	430​	450​	7.2​	20​	340​		300​	500​	660​	1100​
King Springs	KTPR-131HD	435​	455​	8.4​	19​	250​	350​	100​	300​	220​	660​
OME	OME-2721 0" lift	430​	440​	8.42​	18.5​	270​	350​	0​		0​
OME	OME-2722 1" lift	430​	440​	7.2​	19​	275​		0​	200​	0​	440​
OME	OME-2723 1" lift	440​	450​	7.2​	20​	340​		200​	400​	440​	880​
OME	OME-2724 1" lift	435​	445​	7.2​	21​	400​		400​	600​	880​	1320​
OME	OME-2725 1" lift	435​	445​	7.71​	22​	440​		600​		1320​
Tough Dog	TDC931L 1" lift	445​	475​	7.2​	18​	240​		0​	300​	0​	660​
Tough Dog	TDC931HL 1" lift	425​	455​	7.2​	19​	275​		300​	500​	660​	1100​
Tough Dog	TDC931VHL 1" lift	425​	455​	7.2​	20​	340​		500​		1100​
Bilstein	B12 53-297686							180​		396​
Eibach	E30-82-072-04-02	414	414			300		90​	180​	198​	396​
Icon	Dual Rate 52750					?	?			0​	0​
Trail Tailor	Tourflex Standard	505​	515​	9.77​				100​	300​	220​	660​
Trail Tailor	Tourflex HD	545​	555​		19.5​	180​	320​	300​		660​
Ironman	TOY064A 1" lift	425​	440​		19​	269​		0​	200​	0​	440​
Ironman	TOY064B 2" lift	455​	470​		19​	269​		0​	300​	0​	660​
Ironman	TOY064EA 2" lift	465​	475​		20​	286​		100​	400​	220​	880​
Ironman	TOY064C 2" lift	455​	465​		21​	371​		400​		880​

 

[1Maverick]

@linuxgod made a great reference for various springs and spring rates quoted below.

For reference, the stock LC200 rear spring rate which I didn't see listed here is 170 lbs/in.

The OME series of rear springs start at dramatically higher spring rates, 270+. I don't believe the 2721 will do what you want given that it only gives up 5 lb/in to the 2722.

Separately, while many do it, it's really not best practice with suspension tuning to use spring rate to compensate for lift. Free length is best used. Since that's not completely tailorable, trim packers / coil spacers should be used. They get a bad rap, but even stock, many manufacturers use it as it's the right tool for the job.

If your rear is as oversprung as you say, with the front end manageable - softening the rear end alone may help the front end ride even better. Reason is that some of the energy at the rear axle is being transferred and managed at the front as it's comparably that much softer? Tuning is best done as a system.

The front end rides pretty well for sure. The rear ended is a tractor over asphalt bumps. I tried adjusting the rear shocks to no avail. It just rotates the entire shock housing. This could also be the culprit. I wonder if spraying the adjusters with lithium grease would free them. I would probably be better off going to a 2720. Still may just put in a whole new system

 

[100kiwi]

The front end rides pretty well for sure. The rear ended is a tractor over asphalt bumps. I tried adjusting the rear shocks to no avail. It just rotates the entire shock housing. This could also be the culprit. I wonder if spraying the adjusters with lithium grease would free them. I would probably be better off going to a 2720. Still may just put in a whole new system

The rear are a pain to adjust. I use a oil filter wrench to hold the shock body while I turn the adjustor with the supplied ome wrench.
I even had to use this method on a brand new shock this past week, that ARB covered under warranty. It lost it's nitrogen charge in 18 months.