Hello Everyone,
I am Alex, from Romania, Europe. I am open to a controversial debate for my first post: what reliability means and what Toyota's legendary reliability means.
This is a lengthy post - you've been warned
Disclaimer: My father ran an automotive repair shop, and I've spent most of my early and late childhood in engine oil instead of dirt. Nowadays, I work as a software programmer for embedded/automotive, but that does not deny my eagerness to learn about mechanics and how stuff works. I can, at any time, disassemble and assemble back any apparatus and understand how it works and its weak points.
History:
There were a lot of cars in my family since 1985, and a lot of wrenching going on.
Back in those days, cars were unreliable, at least according to current wisdom. You had to tweak the fuel/air delivery constantly; everything rattled horribly, and when it rained, you usually needed interior wipers.
A worn towel was the only defogging system in the vehicle, and, sometimes, there was no fuel gauge.
You also had to adjust the valve clearance from time to time; it was written in the user manual. Nowadays, it's written not to drink from the coolant reservoir and how the exhaust is not the happy end.
Since 2000, I acquired 150k in a Dacia 1310, 150k in VW Golfs Mk1 and Mk2, 250k in an Opel Corsa B, 320k in a VW Golf Mk4, 150k in a Skoda Octavia 2012, 25k in a Toyota Yaris 2018, and ~50k combined in Toyota Land Cruisers - a 1991 HDJ80, a 2016 HZJ78 and a 2021 Prado 2.8D
Toyotas are the last members of the family, all four at this time - the Yaris and the cruisers, since 2020
The Prado 150 was brand new, while the others I bought on the used market.
I did all the work myself on all the cars I owned, except for bodywork. This is my rating for wrenching on the cars I've owned, from 1 to 5. By wrenching, I mean the ease of disassembly stuff from the car, ideally without damaging the part itself or something else in the process, on a used car (quality of materials may play a significant role in some vehicles).
Dacia 1310 - zero
Golf MK1 - 5
Golf MK2 - 4
Opel Corsa B - 2
Golf MK4 - 3
Skoda Octavia 2012 - 2.5
Yaris 2018 - 1.5
HDJ80 - 3.5
HZJ78 - 4
Prado 2021 - zero
To explain some scores:
Dacia 1310 gets zero because, when wrenching on this one, you will invariably damage something else, even if it's new. Build quality is awful. But a dependable vehicle, nevertheless. Because it breaks down on the road, you could find spare parts at every intersection. Not kidding, there were more spare parts shops for Dacia than fast foods in the old days. Wrenching it every 100-200km was not unheard of.
Golf MK1 gets five for the ability to wrench everything with a minimal toolkit without damaging anything, even on subsequent disassembly on a 30-year-old vehicle.
New cars got a low score because they cannot be adequately serviced no matter who is building them. The same electronics and emissions issues creep on every vehicle built after 2012.
Now, for the elefant(s) in the room:
HDJ80/HZJ78 with 1HD(T) - the engine is excellent, but the rest of the car is utter crap - the build quality on these vehicles is AWFUL. From bad engineering (not having same width axles on HZJ78, poorly engineered 24V starting system on HDJ80 ) to alloy choices on actuators and chassis that rust in no time to crappy plastics that become brittle or matte (on headlights) after ~ 6 years.
Prado 2021 - ECU without JTAG or recovery possibility, faulty DEF system in cold weather with hand warmers sticked to the tank, DPF regenerations every 150km with funny smells, unresponsive head unit, cracked KDSS "metal" case. Hint - it's not metal; it's the worst possible alloy, similar in quality to cheap Chinese "full metal" toys.
Also, the availability of parts plays a significant role. Fixing a power steering intermittent failure on the Yaris took six service visits and disabled the car for three weeks in total.
Do you know what the most reliable cars are in Romania? Renault Clio Symbol 1.5 dci, Dacia Logan 1.6 MPI (also known as Renault Logan), and any VW/Skoda/Audi with the ALH engine. Let me explain why in more than a few words:
First and foremost, the Renault cars are very basic. One rule of reliability is to avoid complexity. They do not have fancy electronics, and if they fail, their control units are very basic and cheap to repair. Second, at least for Renault Clio, the body is appropriately rust-proofed. Hear this, Toyota... An affordable, low-cost car has rust proofing, achieving the highest possible score on rust-resistant vehicles in history, with a perfect score of zero rust for decades-old cars. Dacia Logan, even if it had a crappy body that would rust like hell, the engineers somehow accidentally made the panels easily replaceable even in the most remote parts of the world. It is not uncommon to see Logan Taxis in Bucharest with more than 500k miles on the odometer. They are driven every day without care and skip maintenance. Somehow, these two vehicles achieved the pinnacle of reliability in the whole history of the car manufacturing world, and somehow nobody is talking about it.
Second, the VW/Audi/Skoda owner will religiously maintain his car and fix everything before it's too late. His mentality is that "Zi Germans" built "za best" cars. He will keep the vehicle clean and well lubed and probably get an odometer "recalculation" before selling it "like new" to an Eastern European user. The new owner usually remaps it and drives it harder, but the car still holds. For example, there is a B6 TDI for sale with 521k miles on the odometer. In Romania, we doubt the mileage on every VW/Audi/Skoda. Go figure out how much abuse these cars can take.
In conclusion, I do not believe in Toyota's "Legendary" Reliability. I don't see it; I am sorry. I love my Cruisers, don't get me wrong. I do because I cannot find any better for Overlanding, but it does not imply that there is some "magic" reliability built into them. There is no such thing. Reliability means more than "how much does it cost when it breaks, averaged." What's the audience? Is it a casual driver or a more experienced driver with mechanical skills? If, but if, Land Rover gets the electronics just right, they could, in theory, make the new Defender the most reliable vehicle there is. Until it breaks, would I take one across the Namibian desert? No way in hell!
I prefer a car that breaks more often, but it can quickly be fixed, ideally in the bush, and get back on the road as soon as possible while minimizing costs. Luxury SUVs do not belong in this category. Maybe the 70 series with the 1HZ engine, but if other manufacturers decided to make a similar barebone vehicle, I bet their reliability would match.
I bet that the preferred Overlanding vehicle would soon be a Dacia/Renault Duster or similar. You can carry everything that usually breaks in a milk crate, gets 250 miles from a jerry can, and parts are cheap and readily available in almost every part of the world (except for America and 'Stralia). If it breaks beyond recovery, you can even leave it there, with no hard feelings.
I laughed when I heard in 2006 that Germans were selling their VWs and Audis and buying Dacia/Renault Logans and Sandero. In reality, they were on to something...
Last year, my '91 HDJ80 ate a Dacia Duster worth of value just in suspension parts.
Now I am really thinking of buying one... and also afraid at the same time... What if... I don't love my Cruzers anymore?
Cheers!
I am Alex, from Romania, Europe. I am open to a controversial debate for my first post: what reliability means and what Toyota's legendary reliability means.
This is a lengthy post - you've been warned
Disclaimer: My father ran an automotive repair shop, and I've spent most of my early and late childhood in engine oil instead of dirt. Nowadays, I work as a software programmer for embedded/automotive, but that does not deny my eagerness to learn about mechanics and how stuff works. I can, at any time, disassemble and assemble back any apparatus and understand how it works and its weak points.
History:
There were a lot of cars in my family since 1985, and a lot of wrenching going on.
Back in those days, cars were unreliable, at least according to current wisdom. You had to tweak the fuel/air delivery constantly; everything rattled horribly, and when it rained, you usually needed interior wipers.
A worn towel was the only defogging system in the vehicle, and, sometimes, there was no fuel gauge.
You also had to adjust the valve clearance from time to time; it was written in the user manual. Nowadays, it's written not to drink from the coolant reservoir and how the exhaust is not the happy end.
Since 2000, I acquired 150k in a Dacia 1310, 150k in VW Golfs Mk1 and Mk2, 250k in an Opel Corsa B, 320k in a VW Golf Mk4, 150k in a Skoda Octavia 2012, 25k in a Toyota Yaris 2018, and ~50k combined in Toyota Land Cruisers - a 1991 HDJ80, a 2016 HZJ78 and a 2021 Prado 2.8D
Toyotas are the last members of the family, all four at this time - the Yaris and the cruisers, since 2020
The Prado 150 was brand new, while the others I bought on the used market.
I did all the work myself on all the cars I owned, except for bodywork. This is my rating for wrenching on the cars I've owned, from 1 to 5. By wrenching, I mean the ease of disassembly stuff from the car, ideally without damaging the part itself or something else in the process, on a used car (quality of materials may play a significant role in some vehicles).
Dacia 1310 - zero
Golf MK1 - 5
Golf MK2 - 4
Opel Corsa B - 2
Golf MK4 - 3
Skoda Octavia 2012 - 2.5
Yaris 2018 - 1.5
HDJ80 - 3.5
HZJ78 - 4
Prado 2021 - zero
To explain some scores:
Dacia 1310 gets zero because, when wrenching on this one, you will invariably damage something else, even if it's new. Build quality is awful. But a dependable vehicle, nevertheless. Because it breaks down on the road, you could find spare parts at every intersection. Not kidding, there were more spare parts shops for Dacia than fast foods in the old days. Wrenching it every 100-200km was not unheard of.
Golf MK1 gets five for the ability to wrench everything with a minimal toolkit without damaging anything, even on subsequent disassembly on a 30-year-old vehicle.
New cars got a low score because they cannot be adequately serviced no matter who is building them. The same electronics and emissions issues creep on every vehicle built after 2012.
Now, for the elefant(s) in the room:
HDJ80/HZJ78 with 1HD(T) - the engine is excellent, but the rest of the car is utter crap - the build quality on these vehicles is AWFUL. From bad engineering (not having same width axles on HZJ78, poorly engineered 24V starting system on HDJ80 ) to alloy choices on actuators and chassis that rust in no time to crappy plastics that become brittle or matte (on headlights) after ~ 6 years.
Prado 2021 - ECU without JTAG or recovery possibility, faulty DEF system in cold weather with hand warmers sticked to the tank, DPF regenerations every 150km with funny smells, unresponsive head unit, cracked KDSS "metal" case. Hint - it's not metal; it's the worst possible alloy, similar in quality to cheap Chinese "full metal" toys.
Also, the availability of parts plays a significant role. Fixing a power steering intermittent failure on the Yaris took six service visits and disabled the car for three weeks in total.
Do you know what the most reliable cars are in Romania? Renault Clio Symbol 1.5 dci, Dacia Logan 1.6 MPI (also known as Renault Logan), and any VW/Skoda/Audi with the ALH engine. Let me explain why in more than a few words:
First and foremost, the Renault cars are very basic. One rule of reliability is to avoid complexity. They do not have fancy electronics, and if they fail, their control units are very basic and cheap to repair. Second, at least for Renault Clio, the body is appropriately rust-proofed. Hear this, Toyota... An affordable, low-cost car has rust proofing, achieving the highest possible score on rust-resistant vehicles in history, with a perfect score of zero rust for decades-old cars. Dacia Logan, even if it had a crappy body that would rust like hell, the engineers somehow accidentally made the panels easily replaceable even in the most remote parts of the world. It is not uncommon to see Logan Taxis in Bucharest with more than 500k miles on the odometer. They are driven every day without care and skip maintenance. Somehow, these two vehicles achieved the pinnacle of reliability in the whole history of the car manufacturing world, and somehow nobody is talking about it.
Second, the VW/Audi/Skoda owner will religiously maintain his car and fix everything before it's too late. His mentality is that "Zi Germans" built "za best" cars. He will keep the vehicle clean and well lubed and probably get an odometer "recalculation" before selling it "like new" to an Eastern European user. The new owner usually remaps it and drives it harder, but the car still holds. For example, there is a B6 TDI for sale with 521k miles on the odometer. In Romania, we doubt the mileage on every VW/Audi/Skoda. Go figure out how much abuse these cars can take.
In conclusion, I do not believe in Toyota's "Legendary" Reliability. I don't see it; I am sorry. I love my Cruisers, don't get me wrong. I do because I cannot find any better for Overlanding, but it does not imply that there is some "magic" reliability built into them. There is no such thing. Reliability means more than "how much does it cost when it breaks, averaged." What's the audience? Is it a casual driver or a more experienced driver with mechanical skills? If, but if, Land Rover gets the electronics just right, they could, in theory, make the new Defender the most reliable vehicle there is. Until it breaks, would I take one across the Namibian desert? No way in hell!
I prefer a car that breaks more often, but it can quickly be fixed, ideally in the bush, and get back on the road as soon as possible while minimizing costs. Luxury SUVs do not belong in this category. Maybe the 70 series with the 1HZ engine, but if other manufacturers decided to make a similar barebone vehicle, I bet their reliability would match.
I bet that the preferred Overlanding vehicle would soon be a Dacia/Renault Duster or similar. You can carry everything that usually breaks in a milk crate, gets 250 miles from a jerry can, and parts are cheap and readily available in almost every part of the world (except for America and 'Stralia). If it breaks beyond recovery, you can even leave it there, with no hard feelings.
I laughed when I heard in 2006 that Germans were selling their VWs and Audis and buying Dacia/Renault Logans and Sandero. In reality, they were on to something...
Last year, my '91 HDJ80 ate a Dacia Duster worth of value just in suspension parts.
Now I am really thinking of buying one... and also afraid at the same time... What if... I don't love my Cruzers anymore?
Cheers!
